Dáil debates

Tuesday, 11 April 2017

4:15 pm

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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7. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his engagements with Mr. Donald Tusk on the Brexit negotiating mandate from the EU Council to the EU Commission. [16426/17]

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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8. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his Department’s engagements with the EU’s Brexit negotiating team, led by Mr. Michel Barnier. [16459/17]

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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9. To ask the Taoiseach the details of his approach to negotiations to the forthcoming discussions with fellow EU heads of government in view of the fact that Article 50 has been triggered by the United Kingdom to withdraw from the EU. [16732/17]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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10. To ask the Taoiseach the contributions he will be making on the Brexit negotiations at the April EU Council meeting. [16718/17]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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11. To ask the Taoiseach the way he and his Department are deepening the links with Ireland's EU partners following Article 50 being triggered. [16720/17]

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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12. To ask the Taoiseach the further discussion he had with the European chief negotiator for Brexit, Mr. Barnier; and if he sought specific reference for the island of Ireland in the EU 27 negotiating position. [16733/17]

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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13. To ask the Taoiseach if he has had further discussions with Mr. Barnier, European chief negotiator for Brexit; and if he has sought specific reference for the island of Ireland in the EU 27 negotiating position. [17712/17]

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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14. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his engagements with the President of the European Council, Mr. Donal Tusk, in respect of the European Council’s Article 50 negotiating mandate. [17836/17]

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 7 to 14, inclusive, together.

As I have previously reported to the House, I have met with the head of the Commission Brexit task force, Mr. Michel Barnier, on a number of occasions, most recently on 2 March when I visited Brussels. We also continue to have regular ministerial and official-level engagement with Mr. Barnier and the task force, particularly through our permanent representation in Brussels.

I see the President of the European Council, Mr. Donald Tusk, regularly at meetings of the European Council. My most recent bilateral meeting with him was in Brussels on 2 March. Over recent months, I have continued my intensive programme of strategic engagement on Brexit. In addition to Mr. Tusk and Mr. Barnier, I have met with the President of the European Commission, Mr. Jean-Claude Juncker, and the President of the European Parliament, Mr. Antonio Tajani. I have also held bilateral meetings with a number of EU counterparts including the leaders of France, Spain, Poland, Malta, Cyprus and Belgium. Most recently, I met with Chancellor Merkel in Berlin on Thursday, 6 April, when we had a very constructive discussion about the upcoming negotiations. Of course, I also speak regularly with my EU colleagues in the margins of the scheduled and the informal meetings of the European Council.

The Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Minister for European Affairs have both also been engaging in extensive outreach with EU partners, while other Government Ministers continue to engage with their own EU counterparts. There has also of course been ongoing extensive engagement at senior official level.

In all these meetings, we have highlighted and explained in detail our particular concerns arising from Brexit in relation to Northern Ireland, the Good Friday Agreement, the Border and citizenship issues and have stressed the need to reflect those in the negotiating guidelines and the final agreement. I very much welcome the fact that the guidelines, circulated by Mr. Tusk on 31 March, highlight these issues and identify the aim of protecting the peace process and avoiding a hard Border. This is the positive outcome of the Government's patient and careful work over recent months. The guidelines will be discussed at ministerial and senior official level ahead of the European Council on 29 April.

Although we regret the UK's decision to leave the EU, we have been preparing solidly for a long time and we are ready for the negotiations ahead. We understand our concerns and have a clear sense of our priorities, including in relation to trade and the economy. Now that the EU guidelines have issued, the Government is preparing a consolidated policy paper setting out our approach to the forthcoming negotiations. This will be published later this month. Ireland will be part of the EU 27 team and we look forward to working with our EU partners to ensure the negotiations are conducted in a calm and constructive way and that we achieve the best possible result for our country, our citizens and our businesses.

I have finalised a meeting with the leader of the Netherlands, Mr. Mark Rutte, and the Prime Minister of Denmark, Prime Minister Rasmussen. I think that is to go ahead on 21 April. We are the three countries that are indicated to be the most adversely affected by Brexit. I intend to have direct discussions with these prime ministers in the Hague.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It is reported in today's Financial Timesthat the 27 EU member states are set to approve tough draft Brexit guidelines, among which would be that Britain will have to accept EU laws, the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice and pay a determined amount in budget fees if Britain is to seek even a gradual transition from the Single Market. Is there any agreement within the EU 27 on the negotiating mandate? Is there a strategy for an interim deal after the two-year negotiating period as part of the negotiating strategy or has the Taoiseach a view on that?

With regard to the view expressed in this House many times of a bespoke deal for Northern Ireland, is there any progress on that? Does the Taoiseach have any further thoughts on how EU citizens living in Northern Ireland post-Brexit will vindicate their EU citizenship and Irish citizenship, though they will live at that stage outside the borders of the EU?

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The next question is in the name of Deputy Joan Burton.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Are we going to take answers first?

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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There are 13 minutes left so if we wish-----

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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If we go through everybody, we will have lost the first question.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is all about Brexit.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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It is all on the one topic. It is up to the Deputies.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will say to Deputy Howlin that the priorities he mentioned have all been referred to in the letter from Prime Minister May to Mr. Tusk triggering Article 50. They have been referred to extensively in the European Parliament paper and have been referred to specifically in the draft regulations published by the European Council and Mr. Tusk. Deputy Howlin mentioned the question of the charge that applies here in respect of Britain. There are principles and modalities here. Nothing has been agreed in this regard.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Is there a sum agreed?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have seen reports ranging from low double digits to higher double digits. There has been no detailed discussion about these figures and no outcome has been agreed on it.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Will there have to be agreement on the sum to move on?

4:25 pm

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is the methodology they are considering in regard to how one might arrive at what the charge would be in respect of participation in the European Union and contracted payments going forward when Britain decides to leave. I have seen the comments from the British Government in respect of the European Court of Justice and the European Court of Human Rights. They are issues that have not been decided but comments have been made on them by members of the British Government.

What is going to happen? As the Deputy is aware, the divorce proceedings will be under way for two years and that means a determination of what might be due and the question of the issues the Deputy raised. That will be followed by the question of what is done with European Union citizens who live in Britain and British citizens who live in Europe. For example, there are over 1 million British people living in Spain and a serious number of people of EU nationalities living in Britain.

As the Deputy knows, under the Good Friday Agreement everybody in Northern Ireland is entitled to Irish citizenship and, therefore, European citizenship. The question is on how we deal with this when we do not envisage a return to a hard border, which is the clear political understanding. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle will know this very well given where he lives and the county he represents. We do not want a return to the sectarianism or violence we had in those years. That will require creativity and a bit of imagination to deal with it.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Last week I asked questions to each Minister and the Taoiseach about the number of people who are employed in each Department in working on Brexit. I did not expect to find huge numbers involved but I have to say I was shocked at the replies of the Taoiseach and his fellow Ministers. For example, in a very complicated area, the Department of Justice and Equality, which, as the Taoiseach has just said, has very serious responsibilities, not least in regard to the peace process, the division is headed up by an assistant secretary and there is existing team of 11. The Department of Justice and Equality has always had a big permanent representation, as Deputy Martin will know. Does the Taoiseach know what is being added to the team for Brexit? It is the powerful sum of one official.

Many of us in the House have experience of being involved in government. When we, and Fianna Fáil on previous occasions, were involved in the development of the Irish EU Presidency, as the Taoiseach will recall, people were brought in - some on a part-time basis and some for a limited period - to beef up the Irish Presidency both in the permanent representation in Brussels and in the individual Departments. I recall the Taoiseach speaking with some justifiable pride about it and Fianna Fáil in government also having justifiable pride in this regard.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Go raibh maith agat. I want to accommodate all.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I have a book with me which I will give to the Taoiseach. It shows nothing in respect of the Department of Defence and the Department of Children and Youth Affairs has nobody. Will the Taoiseach explain this?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will explain it. There have been over 400 meetings held-----

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I am not talking about meetings.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Order, please.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What Deputy Burton seems to want here is that we would just employ numbers. I am giving her the first output, which is the triggering of Article 50 and the letter from the British Prime Minister. That reflects all the priorities we have, as a country. It is embellished by the British Government saying it does not want to do anything to harm Ireland. It talks about no return to a hard border, about the common travel area and about the traditionally very close relationships we have in so many ways with the United Kingdom. It is reflected in the European Parliament document and in the document from the 27 as outlined by President Tusk. Does Deputy Burton think that happened just like that? Does she not understand that every Minister, Minister of State and senior official is engaged on this business?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That was not in their answers.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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One can have big numbers but the outcome here is the first tranche of what we know we need, which is that our priorities are reflected in these documents.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That is not what they had to say.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Gibraltar is in there and, obviously, there is a reference to Cyprus. Every Prime Minister and every government knows that we have a single peace process and that there is a unique situation here. They know we are not going back to the Border of the past and they understand what the Good Friday Agreement is about. As Deputy Burton well knows, that does not happen just by assuming people will know about these things. Some 400 meetings have taken place.

Deputy Micheál Martin made the point to me before that if we need particular expertise brought in, it will be brought in and there will not be any objection. That is what will happen. As these negotiations become more formal, more complex and more concentrated, we will have access to the people we will need. For instance, in the area of fisheries, the Common Fisheries Policy is exceptionally complex and complicated and cannot be unravelled layer by layer in the way other arrangements might be. We have geared up for this and, as needs be, personnel of experience, including those with specialist experience, can be brought in.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I would agree overall with Deputy Burton's point. I am concerned about the level of capacity behind the effort both diplomatically and in key areas, as well as in regard to bringing back people who have a lot of experience with Europe. It seems to me we should tap into that experience, particularly that of former diplomats, former civil servants and people in the private sector who could give advice to the Government.

The Taoiseach will have noticed that, yesterday, a large number of southern member states held the latest in a series of summit meetings on their approach to the Brexit negotiations. The idea that Ireland is unique or has a unique diplomatic campaign under way is a bit of a misnomer given that many others are at it as well. It is also now clear that other countries are seeking specific changes to President Tusk's draft negotiating mandate. My sense is that, for some reason, the Taoiseach is refusing to request that the draft would mention Northern Ireland, other than to say the Good Friday agreement should be protected. As a general principle that is positive but it fails to confirm that what we are talking about also includes the key economic, social, cultural and constitutional dimensions of the peace settlement. I think close ongoing connections beyond the legally required provisions of the Agreement go to the core of the overall settlement and we need the Brexit terms to reflect this.

I also put it to the Taoiseach that he seems to be refusing to ask for a reference to the continued full EU citizenship of both current and future Northern Ireland citizens. I have been making the point for quite a long time that, in Northern Ireland, we will have the largest cohort of EU citizens outside of the European borders after Brexit and this should be reflected in the draft agreement. Will the Taoiseach confirm whether he is seeking changes to the draft negotiating text? If so, what changes is he seeking? Why will he not ask for a simple reference to being open to a special arrangements within Ireland that would protect economic and social ties across the Border?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We have 100 people in the permanent representation in Brussels. Their single focus now is Brexit and they are meeting officials every day about elements of this. The sections in every Department dealing with Brexit, be they small or large, are focusing on the issue that is really of importance to us.

The Deputy made the point in a different way that the fact there is no Executive in Northern Ireland means its voice is not out there in the way we would like, as has been referred to by the British Prime Minister. We refer to it in the sense of protection and co-guarantorship of the Good Friday Agreement and of no return to a hard border, and we make the case about the intertwining of economies on a daily basis. Some 600 million litres of milk are produced in Northern Ireland and brought down and processed by Aurivo and others, and some of it goes back across the Border again in semi-processed form. There are 30,000 to 40,000 people who cross the Border every day and hundreds of thousands of truck movements every year. These are issues of real concern to us.

That is why I am glad, for starters, that these issues are part of the written priorities from a European point of view. Michel Barnier had a meeting with the Irish Farmers Association yesterday in Brussels to deal with elements of this cross-Border activity and cross-Border trade.

Deputy Micheál Martin, Deputy Mary Lou McDonald and the other leaders of the groups should note we are not hiding anything here. We issue the full up-to-date Brexit report on an as-needs-be basis. The Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Charles Flanagan, the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Dara Murphy, and every other Minister meet their counterparts. They have done so and will continue to do so. There is a very big agenda here.

Of all the countries, Ireland is the best prepared. Every other country in Europe knows just how assiduously we have prepared for this. The first outcome is our references of our priorities in the draft negotiating document, which I hope will be signed off on 29 April.

4:35 pm

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The simple repetition of "no return to a hard Border" does not achieve no return to a hard Border. If we are to take Ms Theresa May and the Tories at their word, we are walking very close to a return to a hard Border. The Taoiseach will know, because we debated it in the Dáil, that a motion was passed proposing we seek special designated status for the North of Ireland within the European Union. That is the view of this House. What progress has the Taoiseach made in advancing that proposition? When does he propose to publish his consolidated document outlining his negotiating strategy? I do not know whether it will be a White Paper or what colour paper it will be on. I cannot discern any coherent strategy in the Taoiseach's approach. Perhaps that was evidenced by Deputy Burton's query on staffing levels but I do not believe it is just a matter of staffing levels.

The Taoiseach should be seeking a strengthening of the Council guidelines. Contrast the reference to Gibraltar with the reference to the North of Ireland and the island of Ireland. Gibraltar is a special case and has very special circumstances. It has a contested border, an internationally binding peace agreement and the constitutional and legal framework and architecture that go with that. Brexit will sabotage that. Let us not put any sugar coating on it.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not agree at all with this. Gibraltar does not have an internationally legally binding agreement. What happens to the status of Gibraltar is a matter between the United Kingdom and the Kingdom of Spain. That is a bilateral matter. Gibraltar joined the European Union when Britain joined the European Union.

We already know about - it is referred to in the documents from Prime Minister May, the European Parliament and the European Council - the unique and particular very special circumstances that apply in the case of Northern Ireland because of the peace process and the Border, in respect of which there will be no return of a hard Border. These are already special status arrangements. The Deputy does not seem to want to appreciate or accept it. Everybody in Northern Ireland is, under the Good Friday Agreement, entitled to Irish citizenship and therefore to EU citizenship. This matter is very clear under the Good Friday Agreement. Owing to the intertwining of the economies, I will say it again that there will be no return to a hard Border. The Deputy will keep repeating her mantra and I will tell her that the Irish Government's view, which is shared by the British Government, is that there will be no return to a hard Border, but it will require creativity and a bit of imagination to make this function, depending on the trading relationship that will apply after the divorce between the United Kingdom and the European Union. That is where the measures of real negotiation and complicated and difficult discussions will take place.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What about special status?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The nature of that agreement will decide the nature of the relationship between the European Union and the United Kingdom. Britain wants to have as close a relationship as possible with us. We support that because that would suit us.