Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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6. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence the reviews of a matter (details supplied) that have been conducted by his Department; the outcomes of those reviews to date; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15261/17]

Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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This is the third question being put to the Minister on the issue of the inadequate representation of members of the Defence Forces. The Minister of State's response to my two colleagues was to tell us of the lack of access for the Defence Forces to the industrial relations machinery. We do not want know what the present arrangement is. We want to know what the Minister of State has done to change it. His answers so far have been to shrug his shoulders and say it is grand because the conciliation and arbitration scheme exists, the Department of Justice and Equality is considering it and he will wait to see what it says. That is not good enough and the Minister of State might want to add a bit to his answer.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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As I indicated in my earlier reply I remain satisfied with the present arrangements under the combined mechanism of the conciliation and arbitration scheme and the parallel process in place for the Defence Forces. I have no immediate plans to make any changes. That said, I have acknowledged to the representative associations on foot of representations made to me that I will keep the matter under ongoing review in the light of the recent Government decision to provide the Garda Representative Association, GRA, with access to the State industrial relations institutions.

I am advised that a working group has been established by the Department of Justice and Equality to examine this matter with a view to developing the necessary draft legislative proposals. As I stated to Deputy Lisa Chambers, there will be a representative of the Department of Defence on that working group. My officials will continue to liaise with their colleagues in the Department of Justice and Equality as this matter progresses and will report back to me when the group has completed its deliberations. However, for the avoidance of any doubt, I do not want to appear to be pre-empting any future Government decisions on these matters. I am satisfied that the current structures in place are adequate and fit for their intended purpose.

Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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We can take it from the Minister of State's reply that an ongoing review means that he is going to do nothing, that he will just wait and see what other people do and that he might tag along afterwards if it suits his agenda. The prohibition on trade union membership for members of the Defence Forces is effective under the Defence (Amendment) Act 1990. That Act states that the Minister can lift the prohibition. It is inadequate for members of the Defence Forces that the Minister of State is acting as a bystander. He has said repeatedly that he is happy with the conciliation and arbitration scheme. Nobody else is happy with it. Members of the Defence Forces are disadvantaged compared to any other workers in the State, including members of An Garda Síochána.

The Minister has reluctantly agreed to changes in terms of lifting the exclusion of the Organisation of Working Time Act. It took five years for the Permanent Defence Force Other Ranks Representative Association, PDFORRA, to drag the Department to the table to engage on that issue. It took the threat of legal action for it to happen. The Minister has lauded the actions of Defence Forces personnel in the Mediterranean. They, in effect, were being paid less than the minimum wage because of the Organisation of Working Time Act not being in place for them. They had to threaten legal action. Everything has to be dragged out of the Department or done at the Minister of State's whim. The members of the Defence Forces want it as a right; it a right that everybody else has.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I have listened to the representative organisations, both PDFORRA and the Representative Association of Commissioned Officers, RACO. The working group that has been set up will include a member of the Department of Defence. The Department will get feedback from the working group as to how I can proceed and review the current structures. I have seen the conciliation and arbitration process working on a daily basis. I am satisfied that it is working in the way that was originally intended. While there are similar policies in place in the Department of Justice and Equality and Department of Defence in respect of An Garda Síochána and members of the Defence Forces, that does not indicate that one case follows the other. When the working group starts its deliberations, I will await the outcome of the working group's deliberations and decide where to go from there.

Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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The granting of rights in this case is going to have to be dragged out of the Department. It is the same as the Garda Commissioner refusing to go until she has to do so. The Department of Defence is eventually going to have to give in but, as it drags its heels, a lot of damage is being done. The current arrangement is not a substitute for real negotiating power. This is important to members of the Defence Forces because the lack of representation has resulted in their terms and conditions of employment being excessively eroded, even against the backdrop of erosion in other public services. The proof of the pudding is that 50 or 60 personnel, of all ranks, are leaving each month. The State is investing money in recruiting people but the wages are so low that they cannot be retained. In a recent survey on morale in the Defence Forces, less than half of respondents expressed satisfaction with military life. That is a drop over the past number of years. Pay and conditions have fallen really far behind. Defence Forces personnel are at risk from moneylenders and so on. This is urgent. Sitting back and waiting for others to deal with it is not enough.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is comparing the Defence Forces to An Garda Síochána. A case was brought on behalf of An Garda Síochána to the European Committee on Social Rights about restrictions on access to pay negotiations. The committee, as part of its findings, decided that the right to strike prohibition was in breach of the charter. That situation is not directly comparable to our military industrial relations mechanisms for fundamental reasons. The restriction of strike action in the military service not only safeguards any emergency requirements of the State should they arise but also protect the military chain of command and control, without which the military could not function.

I am happy that the working group has been set up. A member of the Department of Defence will take part in that group. The situation will be reviewed when the working group concludes its work.