Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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1. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meetings with religious leaders. [13920/17]

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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2. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on any recent meetings he has held with church leaders and faith communities. [13987/17]

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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3. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meetings with church leaders and faith communities. [15507/17]

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1, 2 and 3 together.

Like public representatives generally, I meet church leaders informally from time to time in the course of attending official or public events. Last year in particular, with the 1916 commemorations, I attended many events that were also attended by representatives from various religious groups.

As Taoiseach in the previous Government, I met with representatives from the Catholic Church, Church of Ireland, the Jewish community, the Islamic community, Atheist Ireland and the Humanist Association of Ireland as part of the structured dialogue process. I also met an ecumenical delegation of European churches in the context of Ireland's Presidency of the Council of the European Union in 2013.

I have reported to the House on all the meetings I have held under the structured dialogue process in replies to various parliamentary questions since 2013, most recently on 2 February and 15 June of last year.

I have not held any meetings under the structured dialogue process since the formation of the current Government.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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I want to raise with the Taoiseach the issue of the Catholic orders and the redress scheme. The whole question of how these institutions were run and so on is now a major issue. According to the Comptroller and Auditor General, the Catholic religious congregations have only paid 13% of the costs of a redress scheme set up to help survivors. The report states that by the end of 2015, the total cost of the commission which inquired into child abuse and the redress scheme was an estimated €1.5 billion. However, that progress has actually gone into reverse. Some 18 religious orders have offered the equivalent of about 23% of the overall cost. I want to ask in particular about one religious order, the Christian Brothers. They said they were on course to honour all the voluntary pledges they made. Of the €34 million that they pledged, €24 million has been paid, with the final €10 million to be paid in 2017 on a phased basis, linked to property sales. The problem is that they have tried to transfer lands that they own to the Edmund Rice Schools Trust, which are their own schools. They are trying to use this transfer as part payment of their obligations under the redress scheme. Just so the Taoiseach knows, patronage of the most recent secondary school in Castleknock, in Dublin West, was awarded to this trust. People are aghast that religious congregations are being awarded hospitals and schools like it is business as usual and like nothing has happened, yet those congregations have not even fulfilled their obligations. The Sisters of Mercy are similar. Apparently I only have a minute and a half so I do not have time to go into it.

I had hoped to raise with the Taoiseach the fact that, in the 1920s and 1930s, a succession of laws were passed which gave the church control over health, education, and employment as it pertained to women. Basically, the Taoiseach's ancestors-----

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you, Deputy.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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-----in Cumann na nGaedheal were in competition with Fianna Fáil: "I will raise you a Censorship of Publications Act" and "I will bid you a Juries Act to top it off." It was a competition between the lads to see who was the most holy and who would give the church the most power.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach mentioned that he has not met the main leaders of the churches in an organised fashion in the last year.

In particular, does the Taoiseach intend to meet the leaders in Ireland of the Catholic Church and the Protestant churches? At such a meeting, will he raise the issue of the mother and baby homes, including the Bethany homes?

On a question that was raised earlier, will he ask about recompense and the failure to transfer assets to the State as promised? Given the fact there are many assets which are growing in value as we speak, not only is there a need to transfer the assets of specific orders to the State to ensure compensation is paid to those who were basically incarcerated in mother and baby homes, but those assets need to be frozen pending the outcome of any inquiry, commission of inquiry, truth commission or otherwise and pending possible criminal actions by An Garda Síochána in the future, if such is intended or required when the full horrors of what we have seen emerge from Tuam in particular have been revealed.

The Taoiseach met Pope Francis briefly last week. I do not know whether he had enough time to mention the recent revelations or whether he suggested to Pope Francis that, when he arrives in Ireland, he comes bearing orders to the orders based in Ireland to relieve them of whatever assets they hold to ensure they pay their full dues, if they could ever do that.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I want to know if the Taoiseach has raised with any members of the hierarchy, either formally via the kind of meetings which the Government has with leaders of faith communities or informally, the issue of the findings at the Tuam site.

In terms of the preparations which are being made for Pope Francis's visit to Ireland next year, will Pope Francis be afforded the opportunity to visit one of the many mother and baby home sites around the country? It is only right and proper that he should be invited, as the head of the Catholic Church worldwide, to visit at least one of the 139 or 140 institutions which feature in the examination of the commission on children who were in mother and baby homes.

Has the Taoiseach had any recent correspondence or contact, formally or informally, with the religious orders that were the subject of a nefarious deal between the then Government, the then Minister for Education and the then Taoiseach to allow an indemnity to be given to the orders in regard to their liability for these events? While we know there will have to be more redress for other people as a result of the current commissions of inquiry under way, following the publication more recently of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report on the €1.5 billion cost of the redress scheme so far, has the Taoiseach approached the congregations to meet their moral and ethical liabilities, of which we have heard an awful lot in regard to the Garda in recent days? Surely the religious bodies have moral and ethical responsibilities. Has the Taoiseach raised this with them in terms of the further sums they are willing to pay, which they owe and are committed to?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There seems to be a marginalisation of the contact or engagement in interfaith dialogue between the Taoiseach and the churches. The point I want to specifically zone in on relates to a case I raised last week, that of John Allen. We are rightly talking about the horrors of the past but, right now, current Government policy is treating in an appalling manner victims of child sexual abuse in primary schools across the country. We had the Louise O'Keeffe case, which went all the way to the European Court of Human Rights and which found in her favour. The subsequent interpretation and application of that decision by the State has been shocking in its cynicism and is an attempt to narrow the application of the judgment in regard to the cases of people like John Allen, whose abusers have been convicted and are in jail. Has the Taoiseach discussed this with the religious orders? In this case it was a Christian Brother who abused Mr. Allen and was convicted.

The Taoiseach inadvertently misled the House last week when he said the European Court of Human Rights had decided on the idea of prior complaint. It did not. It is the Government that decided on prior complaint, interpreting the court decision. I would ask the Taoiseach to, at a later date, go back over the transcripts and correct the record of the House. I do not believe he intentionally misled the House but I think it was misled in that regard.

I put it to the Taoiseach there is a need to engage with the religious orders in regard to this cohort of our population right now. They went to the Supreme Court and they were threatened with costs. There is culpability of successive Governments on this, as I have said, but I am saying now and have been saying for the past year that we need to do right by current victims of child sexual abuse. We can go on about the 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, 1960s and 1970s but it is happening right now. These people are financially ruined, are in very difficult circumstances and are psychologically under enormous pressure. I think it is unacceptable and it speaks very badly of the Government in terms of its lack of humanity and discretion in dealing with this. It is not that huge numbers have been through the courts. Even to take the cases where convictions have taken place, there is no compensation and there is no reaching out to these victims.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am not sure I can answer all of these questions in the time available to me. I have asked for a report in respect of the particular case mentioned by Deputy Martin. I am also in the process of sending him a letter in respect of some progress made following the issues he raised last week. I will be happy to engage with the religious communities about those who are affected now.

Deputy Burton raised the issue of the Pope's visit here and whether he will visit one of the mother and baby homes. I do not have any control over the schedule of the Pope when he comes here. It is the Pope's choice to come to Ireland and to Dublin-----

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I think his visit is about families. It would be appropriate to visit one of the homes.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----for the world convention of families. I do not have an input into his schedule, no more than-----

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Why not? Can the Government not suggest that?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Order, please.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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He is invited here by the bishops and the church. Obviously, the State will make its facilities available for the Head of State of the Vatican. To be honest, I do not know of correspondence being received by the Department from the religious orders but there may well be. I will check that for the Deputy and I will advise her in respect of the mother and baby homes.

Deputy Coppinger raised several questions about the religious institutions and their failure to measure up. I take a very strong view about this. It is Government policy that the church congregations should increase their contributions towards the substantial costs of the redress scheme to achieve a 50% share, as that is only equitable and proper. As things stand, the State and the taxpayer have met some 86% of the cost of redress.

In 2009 the Christian Brothers offered to transfer its 49 school playing fields, valued at €127 million, to a new joint trust between the State and the Edmund Rice Schools Trust. As the initial offer would not result in a tangible contribution towards the cost of redress, the then Minister, Ruairí Quinn, made two counter-proposals to try to progress matters. Unfortunately, the Christian Brothers decided to reject those counter-proposals and, in 2015, decided to proceed to transfer the fields to the Edmund Rice Schools Trust. It is disappointing the Christian Brothers withdrew their offer. I understand the Minister, Deputy Bruton, would be very happy to engage with the congregations to see if a mutually satisfactory solution could be achieved that would make a tangible contribution towards the cost of the redress response.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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Why are they being awarded schools and hospitals?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Following the publication of the Ryan report, five congregations offered to transfer properties to the State and the voluntary and community sector in addition to making cash contributions.

The total value of those offers was €237 million. The Christian Brothers offered their 49 school playing fields at a value of €127 million to be transferred to a new joint trust between the State and the Edmund Rice Schools Trust, to which the congregation's primary and secondary schools were transferred. The then Minister, Deputy Quinn, had a counter-proposal that the playing fields would instead be transferred to the State, with guaranteed access for the schools currently using them under licence for as long as they were required. That counter-proposal was not accepted by the Christian Brothers. The Edmund Rice Schools Trust was also opposed to it.

In July 2013, the Government agreed to a revised proposal by the then Minister, Deputy Quinn, under which the congregation would be asked to transfer the playing fields to the trust for the continued beneficial use of the schools subject to the legal requirement that the prior approval of the Minister be obtained for a disposal of any part of them and that, in the event of any proposed transfer, the State be entitled to receive at least 50% of the proceeds. Under that proposal, in terms of reckoning that contribution towards the cost of redress, it was proposed that the fields and associated lands be valued on an open market value basis at the date of the transfer to the trust. A sum of 50% of that valuation would be reckoned as a contribution towards the cost of the response. The revised proposal was put to the congregation by the then Minister, Deputy Quinn, in a letter on 15 October 2013.

In the context of a High Court award, the congregation then undertook a comprehensive review of its capacity to meet all of its obligations, including its outstanding redress contributions. A final response to the Minister's proposal therefore was not received until 9 September 2015. In a letter of that date, the congregation stated that as the initial proposal of joint ownership was not accepted by the Minister and as his counter-proposal was not acceptable to either it or to the Edmund Rice Schools Trust, it was proceeding with the formal transfer of the sports fields to the Edmund Rice Schools Trust. The letter stated that the transfer was to complement the transfer of school properties to the trust in 2008 at an independent valuation as of the transfer date of €430 million. The letter also stated that the congregation wished to honour its pledge of investment in education and welfare for present and future generations of children in Ireland. There has been no further communication from the Christian Brothers since.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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Why were they awarded the Castleknock secondary school then?

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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If I owed the State money and then made a deal with the State and welched on it, the sheriff, the Criminal Assets Bureau or An Garda Síochána would be knocking on my door looking for payment. At this stage, the Taoiseach said that there is no further contact with the orders. Is the Taoiseach intending to contact them? Is he intending to have the meetings that I suggested earlier? Is he intending to put it to them that if they do not transfer to the State assets to pay their contribution to the redress scheme, which was very limited, the State will seize the assets that are due to it?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I understand that Pope Francis's visit to Ireland is in the context of families. Obviously, the children and adults who were in various institutions and were the subject of the redress that we are speaking about are all parts of families. For a long period, many of those families were not recognised. There are broadly recognised now. While I understand that the Taoiseach cannot, nor should he try to, dictate the Pope's itinerary in Ireland, given that he will no doubt have a chance to meet him and talk to him either one to one or with other members of the Government and senior members of the hierarchy, he might discuss the most outstanding feature of the recent history of churches in Ireland, which is what happened in the institutions that they ran and governed. I put it to the Taoiseach that he would be seriously lacking in his responsibilities as leader of people in Ireland by not advising the Pope about what happened in this country, the efforts the Government has made to advance redress, and the lack of support that has been received for almost a decade from various religious congregations-----

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Deputy.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----to meet the moral and other obligations they entered into-----

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is eating into the time of other Members.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----that they would finance 50% of the redress, which comes to a figure of about €750 million.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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All of the outstanding committed contributions are being pursued. In particular, officials in the Department of Education, the Chief State Solicitor's office and the HSE are following through on the completion of the remaining property transfers under the indemnity agreement. I understand they are near the completion of 11 of them. Progress is also being made on the completion of the 2009 voluntary offers of €96 million, being contributed in cash and property. The 2002 indemnity agreement is binding on the parties to it, including the State and the 18 contributing congregations. It is not possible to open that agreement unilaterally or try to force the party to do something that is not provided for in the agreement. Regrettably, the 2002 agreement means that the present Government does not have legal mechanisms open to it to compel the religious congregations to meet the 50-50 target or to deliver more rapidly on the voluntary offers made back in 2009.

Would the State consider taking educational property off the religious? It would be appreciated that the strong constitutional protection afforded to private property in the Constitution makes it virtually impossible to confiscate congregational property, as has been suggested by some. Obviously, I believe that a better approach is for the congregation to enhance significantly its cash contributions and to enter into discussions with appropriate Ministers regarding the voluntary transfer of key properties in the education sector and the health sector to the State.

Pope Francis is a very different kind of Pope, as Deputy Burton is aware.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That is why I made the suggestion.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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He has been dealing with the poor and deprived in Buenos Aires in Argentina for many years. He is showing evidence of that in Rome. I am quite sure that Pope Francis is very well aware of the issues surrounding the church, the difficulties created over the years in Ireland and the situation of the Catholic Church in particular involving not only the residential institutions, but also mother and baby homes. The Vatican is well informed, I am quite sure, of the issues of the day in that regard. As Deputy Burton is well aware, it is a matter for the Pope himself in terms of the World Meeting of Families. People in mother and baby homes were parts of families and people in residential institutions were parts of families. It is the Pope's decision.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We have 24 minutes left for the next two batches of questions. The Taoiseach's reply to the next grouping is a long one, so he might tailor it.