Niall Collins (Limerick County, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for taking this matter. I sent him some of the documents I have in advance, which I am sure he has in his pack.

I was approached by Mr. Tom Wall, who is a former resident of St. Joseph's industrial school, Glin, County Limerick, which was a notorious industrial school that featured in many publications. It featured in the Ryan report and, indeed, Tom Wall wrote a book on his experience, life and times in the former industrial school, which states:

Tom Wall was born in Limerick in 1949. At three years of age, he was detained at St. Joseph's industrial school for senior boys in Glin, County Limerick, where he was regularly beaten, bullied, left cold and hungry, and, worst of all, sexually abused. He is the only survivor from Glin industrial school who continues to live in Glin, a short distance from where the industrial school once stood.

Mr. Wall approached me recently and revealed that in 1973, when he was in his early 20s, he was brought back to work in the industrial school by the Christian Brothers who were in the process of vacating the premises. One of the duties he was asked to perform was to take all the records of all the former residents of the school and burn them. There was a file on every boy who went through the school, which contained many pieces of information in respect of each resident. He asked if he could retain his own file and he was told that he could retain whatever he wanted. He retained a significant number of documents, put them in safe keeping and held them for 40 years. That was a proactive move at that point in time because he moved to preserve those documents, which the Christian Brothers wanted to burn.

In 2015, he donated the entire collection of original documents to the University of Limerick, UL, for safe keeping and for them to be maintained and catalogued. However, the Christian Brothers acting through one of the most high profile solicitors in the country are now threatening legal action and seeking to recover the documents from UL in their entirety. Mr. Wall has engaged with the Christian Brothers in a proactive manner and he has said to them that they will afford the Christian Brothers a copy of the documents but they are not getting the original documents. That is at his insistence. He feels that, unfortunately - it is with regret that I say this - the Christian Brothers cannot be trusted in regard to having exclusive possession of the original documents.

A recent report of the Committee of Public Accounts highlighted how they have not lived up to their obligations under the deal they did with the State and we also have seen what is documented in the Ryan report. It is important to realise that these documents include health reports of the former residents, referral letters from the courts service, education referral letters from the Department of Education as well as letters the boys in the schools wrote to their parents and families which were never sent by the Christian Brothers. There are different types of documents in these records. They are, in the first instance, the property of the former residents of the industrial school or their representatives and, second, the State has a claim on these papers because many of them are State papers. I do not have an issue with the Christian Brothers having a copy of these documents. However, a former resident, who is an abuse survivor and who has acted to preserve to these records, is being threatened in a high handed manner by them as they seek to recover these documents to the exclusion of everybody else.

Can the Minister intervene on behalf of the State to secure the documents? Can he take possession of the documents? I also wrote to Tusla about this issue. Would the Minister be willing to meet Mr. Wall to hear at first hand his account of this matter?

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for raising this matter, which only came into the public domain recently. I had no knowledge of it until it was reported in the newspapers.

With regard to records over which the Department has control, we have a number that relate to the former industrial and reformatory schools. They cover areas such as general inspection, medical inspection and certification. There are also registers which provide details of children who were admitted through the courts system as well as individual files on some of these children. The Department made available such records as were required for the work of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse, CICA, which ultimately led to the Ryan report. The Department also provided personal records of many thousands of former residents who applied for such records under freedom of information legislation.

Apart from such records held by my Department, a significant volume of records are also held in the archives of the congregations that managed the schools. Indeed, such records were also sought and used in the work of CICA and the formulation of the Ryan report. The existence of such distinct sets of records held by the various congregations has been acknowledged by the State. They were obviously created, maintained and archived independently of the State. In such circumstances, my Department has never sought to take ownership of such records. While I understand that the question of the use and ownership of the records in question has been under discussion among various parties, this has only recently come to the attention of my Department.

I understand that a number of parties have expressed an interest in the retention, use and ownership of the records in question. It also appears that certain parties in question have sought independent legal services and that all involved have specific views on a resolution of the issue. It is important to emphasise that the State is not a party to these proceedings. This is not surprising given the State has not now, or at any previous time, had ownership or possession of the records in question. In such circumstances, where litigation is pending, it would be inappropriate for me to comment on how and where these records should be dealt with.

The Deputy raised specific questions about whether the State has the power to seize these documents. I do not know of any such power in my Department but I cannot be decisive on that issue because I do not know whether powers reside in another Department.

Niall Collins (Limerick County, Fianna Fail)
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It is important that the Minister understands that the fear is that the Christian Brothers would take sole possession of these documents and they would not be available to any of the former residents or their representatives. That is the key point. Unfortunately - I say it with regret - the Christian Brothers have not been honourable in their dealings with many former abuse survivors they have dealt with or with the State. It is imperative that there should be an honest broker in the middle and the State should be that honest broker. Tusla or the Minister's Department should maintain a copy of the records.

Mr. Wall is clear that he has no issue with the Christian Brothers getting a copy of the documents. The reason they should not have sole possession of the documents is that some of them are incriminating. For example, a document was given to me which is effectively a contract for sale under which boys were sold out of the industrial school into the labour market. Boys worked for a number of years on farms but the Christian Brothers were paid. The boys were effectively sold into slavery. If somebody knocks on their door, the Christian Brothers will not make these records available to former residents or their representatives. It is important that the State should take an active interest in this dispute because, regardless of whether we like it, the State is a player. The State placed these children in the former industrial schools where they were abused and let down. These records should be available to them. In fairness to UL, it is an honest broker. The documents are sealed in the university and a dispute is pending. It is incumbent on the Minister and the chief executive officer of Tusla to address this issue. I have written to the CEO of Tusla and he has not responded yet. I received an acknowledgement from the Minister and he is responding to this matter now. We need to see the State showing an interest. Will the Minister be available to meet Mr. Wall to discuss this issue further following this debate?

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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As I understand it, this issue is potentially being litigated in the courts so it is not appropriate for me to get involved in meeting sides-----

Niall Collins (Limerick County, Fianna Fail)
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It is not in the courts yet.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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-----in the context of a potential court case. Those who hold the records have indicated they will only release them on foot of a court order. I recognise the concern the Deputy raises about whether there is a power somewhere to protect these records. There is another issue about who has access to such records. The records that were presented to the Ryan report were held highly confidential and they are not discoverable by individuals apart from individuals who have a right to their personal records under FOI and so on. I simply do not have the knowledge about whether there is power to provide a protection order of some description to records of this nature. As far as I can establish, there is no such power in my Department to essentially put a freeze on what are private records in this context. All I can say to the Deputy is that I will make further inquiries to see if there are such powers. I can understand the concern people have that such records should be protected and preserved and available where individuals have concerns. I do not know whether these are records that were submitted to the Ryan report or what their status is. This has only come to our attention very recently. They are private records as far as my Department is concerned. The Department was never given power, through the Ryan report or any of that phase, to seize, protect or collate on behalf of the State records that were in the hands of the congregations. I will have to come back to the Deputy on the issue.