Dáil debates

Wednesday, 22 March 2017

Ceisteanna - Questions

Taoiseach's Meetings and Engagements

12:15 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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1. To ask the Taoiseach if he held any bilateral meetings with any EU leaders at the European Council meeting of 9 March 2017; and the issues that were discussed. [13175/17]

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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2. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the outcome of the European Council meeting of 9 and 10 March 2017. [13188/17]

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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3. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his Department's preparations for the forthcoming European Council meeting in Rome. [13424/17]

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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4. To ask the Taoiseach if his attention has been drawn to the comments by President Hollande regarding the establishment of a two-speed European Union; and if he has discussed this with President Hollande. [13425/17]

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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5. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the informal meeting of European Union Heads of State and Government held on 10 March 2017. [13683/17]

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 5, inclusive, together.

As reported to the House in yesterday's debate, I attended the spring European Council meeting and a meeting of the 27 Heads of State and Government in Brussels on 9 and 10 March. As Deputies are aware, I also held a short bilateral meeting with Prime Minister May. I had no other bilateral meetings over the two days, although I engaged with my counterparts in the margins of the EU meetings.

The European Council agenda on 9 March included a decision on the President of the European Council and on the European Public Prosecutor's office; migration; security and defence, which was primarily a report on the state of play; the Western Balkans; and issues relating to jobs, growth and competitiveness, including the economic policy of the euro area, banking union, EFSI, the Single Market, digital Single Market and trade.

On Friday, 10 March, the Heads of State and Government of the 27 member states met to continue our discussion on the future direction of the Union, in advance of the Rome summit later this week, which will mark the 60th anniversary of the Treaty of Rome. In Brussels, there was some discussion of the European Commission’s White Paper, which outlined the challenges facing the Union and set out, in non-prescriptive terms, a number of possible future scenarios. In our preparatory discussions on this matter, I have consistently’ stressed the need to remain united and to focus on those areas where we agree and where the EU can add value to the lives of our citizens. Completing the Single Market and supporting jobs through trade are good examples of where Europe really works for citizens and we will continue to stress the priority of these areas in the period ahead.

In my bilateral meeting with Prime Minister May, we discussed the situation in Northern Ireland and agreed on the need to re-establish the power-sharing institutions of the Good Friday Agreement. I underlined the importance of making progress in respect of legacy issues, in particular. We also discussed the implications of the UK’s decision to leave the EU, and the need to ensure that this does not lead to the reimposition of a hard border on the island of Ireland. I stressed that this presents a significant political challenge and will require a political solution.

Since my meeting with Prime Minister May, the UK Government has completed its internal legal procedures and indicated that it will trigger Article 50 on 29 March. I hope that we will now see greater clarity on the UK approach to the negotiation process, including how it is prioritising its issues and, in particular, the UK’s proposed approach to avoiding any reintroduction of a hard border on this island. Once Article 50 has been triggered, the other 27 member states, including Ireland, will discuss and agree our guidelines for the negotiations ahead. European Council President, Donald Tusk, has indicated that the meeting of the 27 Heads of State and Government to finalise those guidelines will take place on 29 April.

I am aware of President Hollande’s comments about the possibility of a two-speed Europe, although I have not discussed these with him in a bilateral meeting. This concept has been talked about for many years; it is nothing new. Member states co-operate to different degrees. For example, not all partners are in the eurozone or in Schengen, and the treaties provide for enhanced co-operation. From Ireland’s perspective, the anniversary of the Treaty of Rome is an important opportunity to mark the real and lasting achievements of the EU, to promote unity, and to highlight the need for delivery for our citizens. I am sure that most Members agree that Ireland’s place is, and remains, at the very heart of the Europe.

12:25 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Taoiseach. I was in Brussels last week where I met seven Prime Ministers and four Commissioners as part of the ALDE group, when we had a particular meeting. Many people said to us that Ireland's approach to the Brexit negotiations is one where we have to move from talking about the problems to proposing solutions. I had meetings with officials as well. It is fair to say that there is a significant appreciation of Ireland's position in Europe and we will be able to win support for measures which allow us to protect the common travel area and to limit the damage and the administrative barriers at the Border, although there is a great need for specifics on that. However, beyond that, there is no obvious progress or even any proposals on the table. The Government's Brexit document sets out broad policy objectives with limited detail. When will this change? When will we be given any insight into what the Government is asking for in terms of the right to support badly hit industries or to subsidise businesses in respect of the cost of Brexit-related regulations?

The pace of bilaterals has increased but the evidence is that we are spread too thin and simply do not have enough people working on what will be a 27-way negotiation. We do not have the level of staff required to maintain active bilateral engagements throughout these negotiations. We also do not have the right staffing to deal with the fact that we have to approach UK relations in a different way post-Brexit and have to have a new approach to Council meetings. Has a staffing audit been carried out in respect of diplomatic and expert staffing needs for bilateral relations? If not, will the Taoiseach agree to carry one out urgently given the enormity of the challenge ahead?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is not just about numbers. I am glad the Deputy was in Brussels and I am glad he met members of the group to which his party belongs. It is important that he, as the leader of this party, can outline to them the issues that are important for Ireland. We can agree on those - our trading relationships, protection of the peace process, the Border issue, the common travel area and our place as a continuing member of the EU in the future. We now know that the British Prime Minister will trigger Article 50 next Wednesday, 29 March. The Union will respond to that with a draft set of guidelines. We will have a part in those guidelines. There will be a particular short section relevant to Ireland. I would envisage that this draft document will go for publication and discussion, and will come back for decision on 29 April to set out what will be the foundation for those negotiations. I have outlined the priorities for us on quite a number of occasions. That section, which is prioritised, has to be a priority for Michel Barnier's task force on the European end of things, and it will be important. It will also take into account the really important issue for us of the requirement for protection of the peace process, political stability and no contemplation of a return to any hard border. It depends on the language one uses here. Other countries have different views. We cannot formally negotiate with Britain before these negotiations start but we are clear what we want here.

I have addressed staffing previously. The Deputy is fully entitled to get an up to date briefing on all these matters. We are in a position, if necessary, to recruit specialist staff that we might consider necessary and that will be done if necessary, but I assure the Deputy that every leader at European level knows full well what Ireland's priorities are because they have been met by all our Ministers at different Council meetings and I am glad he met some of the leaders from the socialist group.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am talking about the level of officialdom.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will give the Deputy the detail of that.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We had questions yesterday and statements on the recent European Council meeting. Am I to understand from the Taoiseach's response that he had sight of the draft response that will be issued by President Tusk once he receives the letter from Prime Minister May and that there is a paragraph on Ireland in that? Is that what he is suggesting?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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No, I have not seen it.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Taoiseach can come back and explain exactly. Do we have any input into crafting this particular outline of the policy platform being discussed and proposed to be adopted by the 27 member states? Are we crafting that particular section?

I was intrigued yesterday to read in The Irish Timesunder the headline, "Government believes it can secure Brexit deal on Border" that "...the Government believes it can secure agreement that the future of the Border should be left to Dublin and London". Under a byline of Pat Leahy, the article suggests that somehow there is an agreement on a bilateral deal. That obviously is counter to everything that was said recently - that there will not be bilateral discussions on fundamental issues like that and that once the negotiations start, there will be two sides to the table - the UK side and the 27 side. Is there any substance to that report? What, in particular, led to that being written? Is there an understanding that some sort of bilateral arrangement between Dublin and London will have to be accommodated in the overarching 27 position? Has that been discussed either formally at the discussions of the 27 or bilaterally between the Taoiseach and President Tusk?

12:35 pm

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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No, I have not seen the proposed draft from President Tusk. It is a document that will be - whatever number of pages it is - a draft response from the 27 countries. Ireland has an input into it, as will the other 26.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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He said he will respond in 48 hours so it must be in existence already.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes, but I have not seen it. That is my point. I have not seen it. As we are talking, there are discussions going on. We will craft the paragraph that will deal with Ireland.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Ireland will craft it.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We will craft it, yes. Ireland will craft it. We will also have an input directly into the general document because of the meetings that take place with COREPER and other officials. To be clear, there can be no formal negotiations before Article 50 is triggered. I do not want to be accused of having formal negotiations about Brexit with the British Government but I want everybody to understand that in my discussions with Prime Minister May, we clearly understood there should be no return to a hard border. That is accepted by the Barnier task force which recognises the unique circumstances and special case that applies in Ireland because of the PEACE funds, the internationally legally binding agreement and because the Border that was there brought with it sectarian violence. We will make that case from my point of view, the Government's point of view and from Ireland's point of view that any contemplation of a return to what was there before will bring both political instability and the possibility of sectarian violence and we are not going back there.

President Tusk will publish the draft document within 48 hours which will probably be next Friday week and it will go for circulation and discussion. We will have a specific paragraph in there relevant to our issues but also general input into the document. It will be circulated, discussed and we will have whatever rows there will be about it. It will then go for finalisation on 29 April at the European Council. It may not be concluded at that meeting.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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What we understand, in particular from various British commentators, including the Prime Minister, is that Britain will be leaving the Single Market and will also be leaving the customs union. If that is so, and we can only go on what is being suggested by all the different parties in the UK, how then will there be no border? Will the border be at the ports and airports of the island of Ireland? Will the border be at the sea frontiers of the island of Ireland? We have had many different suggestions on vehicle movements such as number plate recognition and technology is very well advanced. What is the Taoiseach's understanding of what that position will be? Will the island of Ireland get a specific mention in the response led by President Tusk? The Taoiseach indicated already, if I understood him correctly, that Ireland will draft it. Will he confirm that? Will it be drafted in the context of the island of Ireland or will it be drafted in the context of the Republic?

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank the Deputy.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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A series of meetings have taken place in recent times, some initiated by President Hollande and some initiated by the Italians, indicating that post-Brexit, quite a number of the 26 are looking at a new arrangements for the European Union which would potentially put countries into different groups. Not too long ago, the Taoiseach met the Prime Minister of Poland which is part of the eastern European group.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, the time is up.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is not very keen on that kind of an approach. In terms of the Taoiseach's conversations with the other European leaders, who will be meeting in Rome at the weekend, what is his view on the idea now being put forward of a two-speed Europe or one with three or four different European groups? Where will Ireland be in that?

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank the Deputy.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Has the Taoiseach had an opportunity to discuss with President Hollande where France stands on his specific proposals and invitations? Was the Taoiseach invited by President Hollande to any discussions or was it simply countries he felt were like-minded?

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We have now overrun the time allowed for that block of questions by almost two minutes. If we are to adhere to the rules of the House, we should not allow the Taoiseach to answer. I am in the hands of the Members now. What do they propose to do when people cannot abide by the time limits set? What do they propose we do?

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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A rigorous Chair, I suggest.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Perhaps, but Deputies ignore the Chair, although not Deputy Howlin, in fairness.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Certainly not.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Since most Members choose to ignore the Chair-----

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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We have not made our contribution yet.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Cullinane has not made his contribution. Do Members want to allocate some additional time for this?

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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An additional five minutes.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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An extra five minutes. Perhaps we will take Deputy Cullinane's question and then go to the Taoiseach.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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This issue needs to come back to the Dáil reform committee because it is serious. We had the same problem yesterday when the Taoiseach rightly said, when he had one and a half minutes to respond to four very detailed questions, that we have to look at the overrunning of time on a regular basis. It has been raised before. It cannot continue like this.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will Deputy Cullinane put his question?

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I will be very brief. I thank the Ceann Comhairle. The Taoiseach previously expressed impatience at the lack of clarity from Britain on Brexit. There was some very important clarity on Monday when the British Government announced it will trigger Article 50 on Wednesday, 29 March, which is in only one week's time. We need to get clarity from the Taoiseach. He said in a previous response that the Irish Government's position is very clear on what we want. It is not very clear on what we want in the North of Ireland and tt is not very clear that this Government will support special status for the North. When the Taoiseach says there should be no return to a hard border, what exactly does it mean? We do not want a hard border or a soft border. There are very real concerns about the implications all of this will have on the all-island economy, on cross-border trade, on agriculture North and South and on a range of issues. Did the Taoiseach raise any or all of these issues at the informal meeting of the European heads of Government on 10 March?

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach has about a minute and a half to respond to those questions.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The notification will be issued on 29 March by the British Government. The General Affairs Council, which is Ministers from the 27 member states, will then adopt more detailed negotiating directives and authorise the opening of the negotiations. The European Council will remain permanently apprised of the negotiations and will update the guidelines and negotiating directives as necessary in the course of those negotiations. The Commission will lead the technical negotiations on behalf of the Union. They will be led by Michel Barnier. Representatives of the President of the European Council will be present alongside the European Commission representatives at all of those negotiation issues.

Our position is very clear on minimising the impact on trade and the economy, protecting the Northern Ireland peace process, maintaining the common travel area and contributing positively to the discussions about the future of the European Union. One section will deal with what everybody now knows which is that there is a peace process in Ireland, which is the subject of dual guarantorship by the Irish Government and British Government and lodged in the United Nations, and that the only land border internally in the European Union will run from Dundalk to Derry. Therein lies the question of what do we mean when we say no return to a hard border. What I mean is no return to customs posts on the main arteries across the road links from the Republic to Northern Ireland. That brought with it sectarian violence. That is what I mean by it.

In respect of the section, for Deputy Howlin's information, dealing with the Irish problem that is about the peace process and the Border situation, it impacts on the island of Ireland, obviously, but it is specifically referenced to our wanting the peace process protected and no return to that kind of Border of the past.