John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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21. To ask the Minister for Health if he has received a copy of the final report on the review of Dublin ambulance services [12099/17]

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is aware that SIPTU members in Dublin Fire Brigade will conduct 24 hour stoppages on Saturday 18 March and Monday 27 March to highlight their opposition to an attempt to break up the its emergency medical service by removing its ambulance call and dispatch functions. Fianna Fáil and I strongly oppose any move to remove the delivery of Dublin's ambulance service from Dublin Fire Brigade and to merge this service with the National Ambulance Service. We must enable and fully support the 1,000 personnel employed by Dublin Fire Brigade in order to maximise service delivery, provide greater efficiency and protect those in fire stations across Dublin. I call on the Minister to intervene in the dispute as a matter of urgency and to ensure that communities across Dublin, our capital city, are not left without fire-based emergency services for any period in the coming weeks.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Lahart. I know he has raised this issue previously in the House. While I have not, as yet, received the report of the review of Dublin ambulance services, I can confirm that a copy of the report was received by my Secretary General in the last few days. My officials, in conjunction with colleagues in the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government, are currently examining the report. I understand that meetings of officials from both Departments are scheduled for today and tomorrow. When these discussions are concluded and a proposed way forward is agreed between the respective Departments, I expect that the report will be submitted to both myself and the Minister for Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government for our consideration. That is the process.

I assure the Deputy that I am fully aware of and greatly appreciate the excellent historical tradition of ambulance services provided to the citizens of Dublin by the Dublin Fire Brigade. It is not just the excellent historical tradition: I appreciate the ongoing tradition of providing services to people in our capital city and county. At the same time, all of those involved in ambulance service provision must have regard to the findings of HIQA. We all must have regard to the findings of the regulator. In its 2014 report, HIQA highlighted patient safety issues arising from two ambulance services operating in the same domain. I fully accept, therefore, that in the interests of patient safety there is a need for a more co-ordinated and integrated approach to ambulance service delivery in Dublin.

Thus, there is a need for the Dublin Fire Brigade and the National Ambulance Service to work closely together to optimise and maximise all available emergency resources. This will ensure the people of Dublin are provided with the most responsive and safest ambulance service possible.

While I have yet to receive the report, let alone the recommendations that will go to myself and the Minister, Deputy Coveney, I assure the Deputy they will receive due and careful consideration. As I said at the Committee on Health last week, I am determined that we do not throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is an awful lot that works extraordinarily well in regard to the Dublin Fire Brigade and the National Ambulance Service. We have to find the mechanism to best address the concerns of HIQA to make sure we have the safest service possible.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister did not say whether he will intervene. What is unusual about this proposed strike is that it is not over pay or conditions. Dublin Fire Brigade is as traditional to Dublin as Brennan's bread. It is part of the fabric of the Dublin area.

The Minister mentioned the HIQA report. There was opposition to that plan from the city councillors and firefighters, and a consultative forum which involved council management and union representatives was established in March 2015. That forum commissioned an expert panel to make recommendations on governance, funding, call taking and despatch. It recommended not that the two call and despatch services amalgamate but rather that an efficient technological system be put in place. However, council management did not accept that report and left the forum the following January. According to the council's minutes of that meeting, the assistant manager said the forum had been set up to reach agreement on the proposal to centralise call taking, which was not the case. To transfer the 100,000 calls handled annually by the fire brigade to another call centre would jeopardise public safety. It would detrimentally affect the safe delivery of the fire-based emergency medical service, EMS, model, for which it is internationally famous.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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The Dublin Fire Brigade has provided a fantastic service to the people of Dublin for more than 100 years. It is a service that is very close to my own heart. Indeed, they tended to my grandmother when she was sick some years ago. It is a case of, "If it's not broke, don't fix it". The service is working well and the people of Dublin are very proud of this service. We would like to hear the Minister express confidence in the service and a willingness to continue that service, as well as recognition of the vital work the Dublin Fire Brigade does for the people of Dublin.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I was the Minister in the Custom House when this was being discussed. On 7 April last year I wrote to the city manager and told him my views, which were that I did not believe this was right, I did not believe the statistics that were being produced and I did not believe the economies the city management said existed. I do not accept HIQA's recommendations and I know the councillors, across all politics in Dublin, do not agree with this.

Let me say this out straight as the former Minister with responsibility for local government: this is an agenda of Dublin City Council; it is an agenda of the Dublin city manager. It is wrong and it needs to be stopped. The report that is on the desk of the Secretary General of the Department of Health, which the Minister can pick up the phone and ask him about, is going to recommend exactly what was recommended to me a year ago. It was wrong then and it is wrong now. The economies do not exist. In fact, I believe this will jeopardise lives. The integrated model that has operated in Dublin works well and has to be kept.

Seán Haughey (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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I have raised this matter in the Dáil previously and I appreciate the Minister giving an update on the situation. I agree with him that patient safety is of paramount importance. However, I point out that councillors in all the local authorities in Dublin have passed motions that the ambulance service should be retained with the Dublin Fire Brigade and I think that is the general view of Dubliners, who are very proud of their fire brigade and its ambulance service.

There were reports last night that the chief executive, Owen Keegan, has referred the matter to the Labour Relations Commission. While I am not sure if the Minister is aware of that, it is something we need an update on. This strike must be prevented. Dubliners generally want to see the ambulance service retained in the Dublin Fire Brigade for all sorts of reasons. At the end of the day, it will be in the interests of patient safety.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputies for their contributions and views in this regard. As Minster for Health, I am very proud of the service that is being provided by the Dublin Fire Brigade in responding to emergency calls throughout the city and county. I thank the members on the record of this House for the service they provide. I am also very proud of the service provided by the National Ambulance Service for people in the Dublin area and beyond that area.

I am aware, as are Deputies and, to be fair, paramedics and people working in Dublin Fire Brigade and the National Ambulance Service, of a number of challenges in this regard, including what seems the bizarre idea that the National Ambulance Service does not have sight of a Dublin Fire Brigade ambulance resource on its own IT system and, therefore, is not able to despatch the nearest resource to the scene. That is not good for patient safety or for the utilisation of emergency resources. Deputy Lahart talked about technological solutions and he is correct that every possible solution needs to be explored.

I hope Members on all sides of the House will join me in calling on all those involved in industrial action not to proceed and to use every mechanism at their disposal through the industrial relations mechanism because, obviously, that would not be in the interests of any of our patients. I know that is not a decision that anybody working as a paramedic would take lightly. I am cognisant of the very strong views of the Dublin Fire Brigade, SIPTU, IMPACT and Members on all sides of the House in this regard. No decision has been taken by me and any decision that is taken by me, or taken jointly by me and the Minister, Deputy Coveney, will be taken while recognising all the various views. I will consult the spokespeople from the various parties at that stage.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for his response, which was more comprehensive than the response we got a month ago when this was raised by me and colleagues as a Topical Issue matter. I welcome a number of features of the response, first, that the Minister will discuss it with the Minister for Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government because, obviously, there is a key role for that Department. I also welcome his reference to solutions, in particular technological solutions.

I highlight once again that it is uncommon in modern Ireland for any profession to decide to take strike action, not over pay and conditions, but over a matter of principle and in defending a very strong tradition that the Dublin Fire Brigade and its ambulance service has maintained and upheld. It is out of conviction in regard to supporting this that my colleagues have continually sought to raise the issue. I take the Minister in good faith. He said no decision has been made by him as Minister for Health, and he committed to continuing to keep the House informed and to discussing the matter with Opposition spokespeople. We hope he will be as good as his word.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I agree with Deputy Lahart. I do not in any way doubt the conviction of any of the members of SIPTU or any other union that has decided to take this action. However, I appeal to them, in light of the process I have outlined on the record of the House, and in light of what Deputy Lahart outlined in terms of utilising the industrial relations mechanism of the State, not to proceed with strike action, which clearly would not be in the interests of any patient in this capital city or county. There is a process to go through and I believe it is important that people follow that process. I would, therefore, ask that people do everything they possibly can to make sure this does not occur. For my part, I will make sure my Department engages very proactively with the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government.

On another point, there will be a need for additional ambulance capacity in our capital city and that cannot get lost in this debate. The mechanism through which that is funded and where the responsibility for it lies, given it is currently with Dublin City Council, is something that also needs to be addressed through this process.