Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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3. To ask the Minister for Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government the potential that refurbished or converted spaces above commercial properties in town and city centres have for increasing residential supply; and if he is considering making changes to the building control regulations to facilitate the use of these spaces. [9430/17]

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome today's announcement on the expansion of the scheme that was piloted in Carlow and Waterford. It will, in the main, apply to existing commercial properties and will allow them to be converted for residential use. I accept that construction costs that would be involved in those works are excessive enough in their own right.

However, the certification and compliance costs, especially in this instance, are crucial. The assigned certifier system is excessive in cost. We believe it should be replaced by local authorities in an effort to reduce those costs, improve local authority revenue, get units in place and reduce rents. I am particularly conscious of over-the-shop developments, the difficulties regarding disabled access and certification in this regard and fire certificates. Assigned certifiers may not be in a position to sign off on these certificates unless these compliance issues are addressed.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I think we all agree that there is great potential in both schemes. What was announced today is the next phase of the repair and leasing initiative, which has been successful in Waterford and Carlow. The plan is to roll out that model. The Deputy has previously called for the model to be available in Offaly and other counties. We also want it to be available everywhere. The scheme is being progressed. A total of €32 million is secured for the scheme, but again there is potential for further roll-out if needs be because it is a successful scheme. This should be considered as one phase. There will be more to come.

To concentrate on the Deputy's question, which concerns the potential for other spaces in urban centres, again we agree with his proposal. There is great potential in it. We have flagged this in A Programme for a Partnership Government, published in May 2016, which we were all part of putting together. It sets out the ambitious priority attached to urban regeneration by the Government, incorporating a series of specific actions aimed at facilitating the regeneration of our urban centres, many of which have been adversely impacted by the economic downturn. Rebuilding Ireland - Action Plan for Housing and Homelessness, published in July 2016, further reinforces the Government's commitment to urban regeneration.

Pillar 5 of Rebuilding Ireland is specifically focused on utilising existing housing stock, with a key objective of ensuring the existing vacant housing stock throughout the country and across all forms of tenure, in both the public and private sectors, is used to the optimum degree possible. Deputy Cowen and I discussed the scheme today and earlier in the week as well.

In this context and further to Action 5.11 of Rebuilding Ireland, a working group which I chair and which involves senior representatives from my Department and many other Departments, local authorities and other relevant actors has been established to bring forward proposals for new urban regeneration measures as early as possible. It is intended that the new measures will complement the existing regeneration activities under my Department's social housing capital programme as well as other initiatives.

Owners of vacant commercial units in urban areas, including vacant or under-utilised areas over ground-floor premises, face a number of regulatory requirements, exactly as Deputy Cowen said, to advance projects for their re-use for residential purposes. Such requirements may include planning permission and building control approval as well as requirements regarding protected structures, which can present regulatory barriers to the re-utilisation of vacant commercial space for residential purposes.

As part of its deliberations in the working group and in line with the Rebuilding Ireland commitment, we are reviewing planning legislation to allow the change of use of vacant commercial premises in urban areas, including vacant or under-utilised areas over ground-floor premises, into residential units without having to go through the planning process. Such vacant units could then potentially be brought into productive and beneficial use for housing purposes earlier than might otherwise be the case. We expect the working group to publish and finish this report in the second quarter of this year because we recognise that this is urgent.

Separately, my Department, working with Dublin City Council in the context of the living city initiative, is exploring the potential for further streamlining the approach to redeveloping and re-utilising vacant properties. In this context, processes and requirements regarding planning, building control, fire safety and the conservation of historic buildings are also being considered. The working group membership includes architects, and we understand the situation. Very often it is impossible to bring these buildings back into use. We are determined to find solutions to this.

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State will have more time.

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State for his response. I do detect an effort to get to the nub of the matter by virtue of the working group he has in place that is investigating the matter. He says he hopes recommendations will emanate from the working group by the end of the second quarter. I ask him to ensure this happens and that, based on those recommendations, the working group sees fit to find the mechanism that can alleviate the problem of certification of building controls. The recommendations should not compromise in allowing for and creating ease of access for people who wish to develop these properties in such a way that the end result will be what we all want to see, which is more property being made available and the rental deficiencies in all towns throughout the country being addressed. I would welcome that.

Regarding the certified assessor and the associated costs for the building sector in general, as I have said on numerous occasions the costs in this country are excessive when compared with those of the likes of the North. I believe I have asked the Minister of State to consider this before. I ask him to allow his working group to investigate and make a recommendation as to the feasibility and viability of, and potential associated with, a new scheme whereby the local authorities would be that assessor. This would offer an opportunity for the scheme to be streamlined and standards maintained throughout the country. The standards are not necessarily compromised at present but they are definitely excessive, are too great a cost and feed into the more general problem of excessive construction costs.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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This is an issue about which Deputy Cowen has real concerns. I share these concerns so I have put much time and effort into meeting people in the business who are becoming assigned certifiers and carrying out this work. There is a great range of costs out there. We are analysing these costs in our Department. We have two working groups on the overall costs of construction, which Deputy Cowen and I have discussed. The Deputy has had discussions with the Minister, Deputy Coveney, on the matter as well. There are two separate reports analysing all the costs. It might not be the case that we compare that badly with other countries, from what I can see, but we analyse this as well and we must keep pushing the cost down.

There is much misinformation out there in respect of the assigned certifier. I stress, and I have said this before, that the Committee on Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government, of which the Deputy is a member, could do great work to analyse and go through this area as a committee and a public forum. I have met companies and individuals who can do this work at much lower prices than those I am hearing about. I stress that the committee is a perfect place to analyse this and I would encourage it to do so. The work we are doing in the working group on vacant buildings, both commercial and residential, is about trying to find ways to reduce the costs and the timelines and make it viable to bring these buildings back into use. The repair-and-lease initiative was discussed today. That is what this is about. We recognise that people sometimes own these properties but have no cash and cannot bring them back into use. Therefore, we are finding ways to make money available upfront to bring them back into use. However, we must try to adjust the rules and regulations without reneging on quality, design or the historic purpose of the building. There are other ways to take a more common sense approach to this-----

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State will have another minute.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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-----which is what we are trying to do, so I think Deputy Cowen will agree with our approach. The report will be published in the second quarter. That is the bottom line on that.

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The commitment was made by the Minister of State further to recommendations over recent months to allow the Housing Agency to conduct an assessment of construction costs. This will identify various aspects associated with what we believe to be excessive costs, one of which will be, I have no doubt, the area of certification. It may well be that on publication of the report, we could enter into an agreement with the committee to ask it to make recommendations immediately that can feed into a decision process as soon as possible in order for this issue to be addressed.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I would welcome that. That is what we are trying to do. We are trying to share our work with the committee because the work being conducted by both is similar. The two investigations into the costs are under way. I stress to the Deputy that there is great opportunity regarding the costs of the certifier. I ask people in this business to explore the options out there, even before we publish our reports. I am very aware of the different prices. People need to do their homework. We can only present facts and gather information, and we will do so, but there is a lot of scope to get fair deals. I have seen the different prices quoted. I will send Deputy Cowen the names of people who might be able to give him different figures because he seems to have seen only one set of data.