Dáil debates

Wednesday, 15 February 2017

1:35 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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14. To ask the Taoiseach the number of officials in his Department that are working full time on Brexit specific issues; his plans to increase the number of staff that are working on Brexit full time in his Department; and if there will be experts on trade agreements and legal experts employed or outsourced. [5771/17]

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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15. To ask the Taoiseach the restructuring plans in his Department to deal with Brexit; the way these changes will relate to other Departments, particularly the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; and the reporting relationships and recruitment plans for same. [5812/17]

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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16. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of the Brexit stakeholder group in his Department; and if he will provide details of its participant organisations. [6911/17]

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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17. To ask the Taoiseach the number of staff working exclusively on Brexit issues within his Department; and if he will report on departmental restructuring that may be required in view of the Article 50 negotiations. [6913/17]

Photo of Seán HaugheySeán Haughey (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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18. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the Cabinet Committee on Brexit and the frequency with which it meets. [7135/17]

Photo of Michael MoynihanMichael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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19. To ask the Taoiseach the frequency with which the Cabinet Committee on Brexit meets. [7365/17]

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 14 to 19, inclusive, together.

Brexit is being treated as a crucial cross-cutting whole of Government issue. In my own Department, I have implemented significant restructuring by creating an amalgamated international, EU and Northern Ireland division under a second Secretary General. This restructuring brings responsibility within my Department for relevant international issues together in a single integrated division. This division supports the Cabinet Committee on Brexit and EU Affairs and manages the overall co-ordination of Brexit issues across Government. There are 31 staff working in this division, including a small number of people seconded from outside the Department. The resources of the division are kept under review. While the staff in this division deal with a wide variety of issues, Brexit is an increasingly significant factor across the division.

Work on Brexit is also supported by the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Flanagan, and his Department, which now has a greater role in EU matters overall, with a newly created EU division and the existing division dealing with Anglo-Irish affairs both having important roles to play. Across Government, relevant Departments, agencies and overseas missions are being strengthened to deal with Brexit. More generally, each Department continues to have lead responsibility for Brexit issues relating to its departmental remit. There is a broad range of overall co-ordination and consultation structures across Government, including the Cabinet committee and supporting senior officials group, and a wide range of working groups are in place. Arrangements for handling Brexit are in place in each Department and resources have been allocated where needed.

The Brexit stakeholder group, which was set up pre-referendum as an information sharing forum, last met in October 2016. Since then we have broadened our stakeholder consultation and engagement through the all-island Civic Dialogue process, which began with a plenary session on 2 November. The second plenary session takes place this Friday, 17 February. Between these two plenary meetings, 14 sectoral meetings examining specific policy areas in greater detail will also have taken place. Members of those groups have been involved in these dialogues. This consultation process allows the Government to listen to, and to capture, the views of those most directly affected by the impact of Brexit from across the island in advance of formal negotiations.

The Cabinet Committee on Brexit meets on a regular basis to deal with Brexit related issues. The last meeting of the Cabinet committee took place on 26 January.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It seems to me that one of the great difficulties is that each individual Minister is dragged left, right and centre in respect of their own portfolio and that there is a very strong case for a Minister who would be exclusively focused on the Brexit issue and putting together the various strands that are vital to a successful negotiation from Ireland's perspective in terms of Brexit and the engagement with various sectors. For example, serious issues arise in the fishing and maritime sector given that, with regard to quite a number of species of fish, up to 60% to 70% of the catch is in British waters. Post Brexit, that has obvious implications for many of our coastal communities if something is not done about it.

Recently, I met with the Irish Thoroughbred Breeders Association and it appears there has been no interaction with what is one of our world class industries which creates a huge amount of employment across rural Ireland in a sustainable way but which exports 80% of horses to the United Kingdom. Up to two weeks ago there had been no interaction with such an important industry in terms of the impact of Brexit on that industry.

There is a lot of activity taking place but some of the meetings are hastily convened. Some people got only a week's notice of the one next Friday. The content, substance and quality of the meeting is more important than just having the meeting and inviting everybody to it. I put it to the Taoiseach that he needs to build up more confidence among people with regard to Brexit and also, in terms of the gravity of it, among the public. I have said previously that I believe a huge opportunity was lost during the recent budget debate to convey that gravity.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you, Deputy. We are running out of time.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is in contrast to the debate on the British budget which eloquently articulated the impact it will have on Britain.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I hope to set out this afternoon the main points on which we intend to follow up. They are the four main areas we have identified, namely, jobs and the economy, the Northern Ireland peace process, the common travel area and our place in Europe. This morning, we announced a further 500 jobs which have come to Ireland. Those people will be employed over the next couple of years, and there are more jobs to follow.

I take Deputy Martin's point about the fishing industry whose representatives I met last evening. The Deputy has seen the maps, the graphs and the figures in respect of the catch, both by volume and value, for Ireland of approximately 38%, which is significant. They are very worried that because the way the Common Fisheries Policy was drafted many years ago, which is very complicated, and the many layers contained therein, we cannot trade one section for another just like that. We regard that element as being an absolute priority along with the agrifood sector. I am sure the Deputy will agree that we should not separate those sectors.

Clearly, in a hard Brexit where Britain has left the European Union, its exclusive waters would entitle it to substantial quotas. That would put pressure on the industry here because of access in European waters. These issues must be taken in the round with the other areas of the economy. The Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Flanagan, has met everybody in this regard.

We have had 11 sectoral dialogues on education, agrifood, transport, tourism, children, young people, jobs, enterprise and innovation. There are three further all-island sectoral dialogues being hosted on energy, heritage, culture, rural Ireland, pensions, social welfare rights, social insurance, human rights, the Good Friday Agreement, seafood, agriculture and forestry. Clearly the industries of rural Ireland will be taken into account. I have to say those sectoral discussions have been very worthwhile because most people who have attended have real experience of the area in which they are working and their points are valid and must be taken into account. It is all building up a compendium of voices of Ireland in respect of their sectors and businesses and how we will have to deal with this. Believe me, it will not be a simple challenge. We await the triggering of Article 50 and the letter of clarification to the European Commission from the British Government.

1:45 pm

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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While the Taoiseach and Deputy Martin were speaking, I had a chance to research what people have said about this enormous development in European policy. The German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, the Taoiseach's friend, has allied herself to the cause. Recently, she stated we have certainly learned from the history of recent years that there will be a European Union with different speeds and not all will participate every time in all steps of integration. The Italian Minister with responsibility for Europe stated they want to have a core shared by everyone and specific policies in which certain countries can move ahead without other countries imposing a veto. In the normal course of events this would be simply the old dispute between the old core European countries and newer countries. The Taoiseach stated that recently he visited Poland. They want less Europe and the older core countries want more Europe, but we are becoming the meat in the sandwich. What is our status with regard to Brexit? The core countries are making it clear that once Britain is gone they will move to have a two speed European model. Has the Taoiseach even had a discussion in Cabinet on this major European policy development-----

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you, Deputy.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----at a time when Brexit is probably the greatest issue that has arisen for Ireland since the collapse of the banking system in 2008.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you, Deputy.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is a real challenge. I appreciate many officials and Departments are doing a lot of work, but listening to the profusion this week it does not seem the Taoiseach is properly in charge of it.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, if we do not give the Taoiseach a chance to answer we will not be able to hear what his thoughts are.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have dealt with the fishing industry in respect of question from Deputy Martin.

Germany has always had that view. There has always been a difference of opinion between northern European countries and southern European countries. Everybody knows that. In the justice area we have opt-in and opt-out, with countries in Schengen and not in Schengen. Europe is not homogenous, with everything applying to everybody in the same way. The Deputy knows this. The question of the Single Market has been under discussion for more than 20 years, and it is the same with the digital single market.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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No country has left the EU in 43 years.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Where we have digital borders they are an obstacle to jobs, productivity, growth and output, which is why Europe has failed to measure up against the United States for many years. Has this been discussed at the European Council in the context of Brexit? No, because Article 50 states negotiations cannot be started until it is triggered. Believe me, the point is that it is at that table the political decisions will be made. Has the question come up around the European Council table that we want to have a two speed Europe? No, it has not.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It will come up in Rome. The Taoiseach has just said it himself.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Of course, and there are comments all over the place about it, but the decision-making in respect of Brexit is made by the European Council and the proposals to come before the European Council will be brought forward through the Barnier task force on which Ireland is represented by the Minister, Deputy Flanagan, the Minister of State, Deputy Murphy, and all the others who are working very hard.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Who is the Irish person who has the leading role in representation on that? We never heard.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Tadhg O'Brien is the gentleman's name. He is a good official and he takes careful note of all the issues that come up, which is very important.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Yesterday, the Minister Foreign Affairs and Trade met the British Secretary of State, James Brokenshire. The same Secretary of State last week voted against protecting the Good Friday Agreement. According to news reports, he told the Minister, Deputy Flanagan, the North will not be given special status after Britain leaves the European Union. What is the Government view of this latest put down? Perhaps it is not a putdown, given the Government has yet to ask for a special status for the North. I note in the Taoiseach's response to Teachta Burton he stated quite rightly the EU is not a homogenous unit, which of course is correct. There is space for a tailor-made special designated status for the North in the European Union but only if the Taoiseach asks for it. The big flaw in the Government's case is it has yet to ask for it. It is the only reasonable alternative to the British position.

I warned the Taoiseach three weeks ago the British approach to Brexit will destroy the Good Friday Agreement. The British dismissed it, as did the Taoiseach, who quotes all the soft words he hears, but the fact is the British Government is intent on doing away with the European Convention on Human Rights, the oversight of the European Court of Human Rights and the Human Rights Act. It has blocked the bill of rights. The Government has not brought forward the all-island charter of rights. This is why the Conservatives, the DUP, the UUP and UKIP all voted against any protections for the Good Friday Agreement in the Brexit negotiations. The British Prime Minister is not listening to the Taoiseach. She is ignoring him. What is the Government's response to this huge threat to an agreement of which it is an equal guarantor and which has delivered almost 20 years of peace and improved economic conditions for all of the people of the island?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Flanagan, met the Secretary of State, Mr. Brokenshire, yesterday. The Minister has been absolutely clear in his stance on this. We do not want to see any diminution of the Good Friday Agreement or its successor agreements. We stand as co-guarantor in terms of full implementation of those agreements and the Minister, Deputy Flanagan, has articulated this on many occasions. What Deputy Adams refers to as special status means, I believe, from his perspective, that Northern Ireland remains in the European Union while Northern Ireland as a member of the United Kingdom leaves the European Union. These two things are not compatible.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Why not?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is because Northern Ireland voted as part of the United Kingdom. While as an entity it voted to stay, how do we expect the United Kingdom, which includes Northern Ireland, to leave the European Union and yet Northern Ireland is to stay as part of the European Union?

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is the same as Denmark and Greenland.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The point has been well recognised by the British Government, as articulated by me and the Minister, Deputy Flanagan, on so many occasions. We have special recognition and special circumstances and we are unique in a European sense. As the Deputy knows, I have pointed out on many occasions the peace process, PEACE funds and INTERREG funds add up to recognition in Europe of Ireland's particular case. Michel Barnier, the head of the Brexit task force, has as one of his four priorities dealing with the Northern Ireland issue, the Border, trade and the implications for the Good Friday Agreement. We will not stand for any diminution of the Good Friday Agreement. The Minister, Deputy Flanagan, articulates this every time he meets his counterparts. The Good Friday Agreement is an internationally legally binding agreement, lodged with the UN, voted for by people North and South and supported overwhelmingly at a time Britain was not contemplating leaving the European Union. This is a political issue we need to address. For our part we will be very strong in defence of the Good Friday Agreement. Why would we not be? Did not the people vote for it?