Dáil debates

Tuesday, 14 February 2017

Ceisteanna - Questions

Programme for Government

3:45 pm

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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1. To ask the Taoiseach if there are understandings rather than agreements with any of the Independent Deputies. [4572/17]

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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2. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the agreements in place to support the Government and the role of his Department in overseeing them. [6037/17]

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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3. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the agreements in place with parties and Independents to support the Government. [7355/17]

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive, together.

There are no understandings of the nature suggested by the Deputy with any particular Independent Deputy. A Programme for a Partnership Government sets out the agreement between the party groups and Deputies who are participating in or supporting the Government.

The parliamentary liaison unit, which is based in my Department, was set up to perform a liaison function to help ensure that Ministers and Departments are properly informed of their responsibilities and procedures in the Thirty-second Dáil.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We read in the papers today in the context of today's discussions that Independent Deputies Michael Harty and Michael Lowry appear to have an understanding with the Government in the sense that they are considering supporting it in the context of Sinn Féin's motion of no confidence in the Government. In the context of the extraordinary Kafkaesque accusations which were made in respect of Sergeant Maurice McCabe via Tusla and those Deputies who as indicated in the media will perhaps be supporting the Government - Deputy Harty says he makes up his mind on a case-by-case basis and Deputy Lowry says he has not decided which way he will vote but he is likely to back the Government - has the Taoiseach had any discussions with those Deputies or other Deputies from whom he may possibly gain support about Tusla and what, in effect, through their agency and offices has been done whether against the internal rules of the agency or against the law? Has the Taoiseach had any discussion with the Deputies mentioned or with anybody else because they are indicating that they propose to back the Government, presumably based on reason and context and the understanding as indicated by Deputy Lowry on a previous occasion unspecified he has with the Government?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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No, I have not had any discussions with the Deputies Deputy Burton mentions are considering supporting the Government or with any other Deputies about the matter she raised.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Constitution is clear that the Cabinet acts as a collective in terms of responsibility for all Departments. It is reasonable to state that collective Cabinet responsibility has broken down in recent times in terms of Ministers flatly contradicting one another. I understand the Taoiseach had a meeting this morning with the leader of Fianna Fáil in advance of Cabinet. Are there regular meetings between the Taoiseach and the leader of Fianna Fáil in relation to the confidence and supply arrangements or how are the confidence and supply arrangements supported at leadership level between the Taoiseach and the leader of Fianna Fáil?

In regard to the question raised by my colleague, Deputy Burton, on the Government's maintained support of Deputy Lowry, the Chief Whip was reported as saying that she provided weekly briefings to him but information obtained under a freedom of information request indicated that there was no available material in that regard. Are weekly briefings provided to Deputy Lowry or any other Deputy outside of Government?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In regard to the Deputy's second question the answer is, not that I know of. It may well be that a Deputy may not read his or her notification of business and may contact the Whip's Office about the business of the House but as far as I understand it there are no individual briefings of the nature mentioned by Deputy Howlin. I have often said that in terms of party leadership there are occasions when it is necessary to talk to all of the party leaders. I have not met individually with Deputy Martin for some time.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It is Valentine's Day.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It might have been better if the Taoiseach had done so.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This is a matter of particular importance. Deputy Martin had a meeting yesterday with Sergeant McCabe and he requested that we might meet this morning to discuss that and I was happy to oblige. If Deputy Howlin made a similar request, I would be happy to meet him, as leader of the Labour Party.

In regard to the confidence and supply agreement between Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil, that is a matter that is reviewed. If Deputy Martin or other Deputies on the far side wish to make a comment about an element of the confidence and supply agreement, which is published, then they do so. There are not regular meetings about it to the effect of whether we have addressed No. 5 or No. 6. Meetings between leaders take place as necessary. It has been a while since I had an individual meeting with Deputy Martin. The meeting today was in response to a particular request that I was happy to accede to.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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As everybody knows, last week we had a series of contradictory statements from a number of Ministers, including in the Dáil Chamber. Contradictory accounts have been given by Ministers and by the Taoiseach in terms of his contradiction earlier of what the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs said.

It appears from what the Taoiseach said that the Fianna Fáil arrangement with the Government stands. As the Taoiseach said, he met this morning with Deputy Martin. Perhaps he would brief the Dáil on whether the Fianna Fáil leader committed his party's continued support for the Government and what commitments, if any, he gave in return for that support. Will he also brief the Dáil on what discussions or contacts the Government has had with any Deputy about the upcoming vote of no confidence in the Government?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The discussion this morning between Deputy Martin and I followed on from Deputy Martin's meeting with Sergeant McCabe in terms of his reflections on that meeting and the view of the McCabe family and on behalf of his own party. It was important to have those views made known and articulated. The Government has not been talking to other individual Deputies. I am aware that Sinn Féin has tabled a motion of no confidence in the Government and that it wants to collapse the system.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I want you to go, Taoiseach.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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Many people want Deputy Adams to go.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As far as I am concerned this is far too serious a matter to be playing politics with. There is an issue that needs to be addressed and, as agreed today at Cabinet, a formal tribunal of inquiry to determine the truth will be established. We now need to work on the terms of reference for that inquiry.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I would like to confirm that it is okay for party leaders to seek a meeting with the Taoiseach and to meet him. I have heard Deputy Adams frequently request meetings with the Taoiseach over the last six or seven years, particularly when he had some campaign or other going on.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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What is Deputy Martin's point?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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My point is that there is nothing wrong with anybody meeting the Taoiseach.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Nobody is objecting to that.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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What is important in the context of the question is that such meetings are transparent and are not secret. In terms of this morning's meeting, it was indicated prior to the meeting that a meeting was to be held and it was acknowledged following the meeting that a meeting had taken place. The purpose of that meeting was to convey the view of the McCabe family that a public tribunal of inquiry was necessary.

My concern this week is not to play politics or play political games in terms of a vote of confidence just like Sinn Féin brought down the institutions in Northern Ireland at the very time when the North needed a coherent voice on Brexit.

3:55 pm

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It did not have it.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There was, actually. The parties were forming something together but Sinn Féin broke it up. It is extremely important right now in the Republic that, in response to the crisis, we have meetings to obtain answers on a core public issue that is convulsing the nation and that goes to the heart of the administration of justice. It is important that we meet and convey the views and emotion of the family at the heart of this. That is important and that manifests itself in a public policy which has now broken away from the idea of a commission of investigation, with all the perils a tribunal can involve.

Deputy Michael Lowry is very clear that he has an understanding with the Government. He says it puts him in a privileged position when it comes to having meetings with Ministers and influencing the allocation of funds to the constituency. I acknowledge the Taoiseach differs with him in that regard. Is the Taoiseach saying the Deputy is not telling the truth in this matter? Does the Deputy have an arrangement with the Taoiseach?

Could the Taoiseach indicate when Deputy "Boxer" Moran will be taking over from Deputy Seán Canney as Minister of State? When is the exchange, the toss-of-the-coin job as to who will be Minister of State for a year? When is the decision due?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Lowry plays the high ball. There is no favouritism shown here. People who have their ear to the ground might know that things are going to happen. I know there was a case recently which had been announced quite some time ago and which seemed as if it had fallen into the lap of Deputy Lowry but there is no agreement, formal or informal. Any Deputy is entitled to have access to Ministers; that is the way it is.

What was the second question about?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The swap-over. When will Deputy Moran assume high office?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That agreement is to be worked out among themselves. There is no specific date for it. I am sure they will come to a conclusion on it in the next period ahead.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Taoiseach's Cabinet comprises a large number Fine Gael Ministers, Ministers from a number of Independent groupings and the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, who is an Independent alone. Has the Cabinet reached an understanding yet with its constituent groupings and its Independents on the matters relating to the formation of the tribunal and, more important, as I said on the last occasion, relating to the grave wrong that was done, the Kafkaesque experience of Sergeant McCabe and his family regarding the complaint made against them via Tusla? Has the Cabinet reached any understanding or agreement in that regard?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Bruton is aware that Mr. Justice O'Neill considered two protected disclosures over a period of some time. He determined that he was unable to say what the truth was. As a consequence, he recommended that there be a commission of investigation and suggested terms of reference to cover all the relevant matters. Clearly, we have moved on from that because there is no point in having a commission of investigation if there will not be participation by one of the central elements, the McCabe family. Therefore, the Government reached agreement in principle this morning to have a public inquiry under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act 1921. The issue now is to draft the terms of reference for that inquiry and determine its structure, range and how it is to be set up. I hope that can be done today and tomorrow and that the matter can go through the House on Thursday, and also the Seanad, so the commission of inquiry can start its work.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I asked whether the Cabinet had reached agreement in regard to the Tusla matter and what happened to Sergeant McCabe.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The indication is that Tusla will be included as part of the inquiry. The Minister is to organise a root-and-branch analysis by HIQA of Tusla and the way it does its work.