Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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I sincerely thank the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this important issue for discussion. I wish to share time with Deputy Martin Kenny, who also has a keen interest in the issue. In 2009, when the Citizens Information Board took over responsibility for the Money Advice & Budgeting Service, MABS, offices from the Department of Social Protection, unequivocal commitments were given that MABS would be a separate and distinct service within the Citizens Information Board. MABS companies were to remain independent with their own voluntary boards of management providing crucial local services.

The proposed restructuring of the local confederation of MABS towards a regional set-up, which would involve six to eight regional offices being established, would be a retrograde step and should be rejected outright. There are 51 MABS companies with 43 Citizens Information services all operating efficiently and effectively at the coalface, dealing with individuals and families who come with the full spectrum of problems and difficulties, especially mortgage issues.

I do not accept the excuse put forward for restructuring, namely, the difficulty of managing the 94 boards. The Citizens Information Board employs 74 staff and regularly uses consultants when required. I recall that originally only four staff were dealing with MABS when it was established by the Department of Social Welfare , as the Ceann Comhairle will probably recall himself. I have no doubt the employees and voluntary boards of management are prepared to play a constructive role in addressing any issues the Minister or Citizens Information Board has about their operations. However, nobody has spoken directly to them in this regard. Last week, the Minister of State told Deputy Martin Kenny there would be no change in the provision of front-line services.

Why are six to eight regional companies being established and how much will they cost? It would be interesting to cost them against the voluntary boards whose members come from various voluntary, State and semi-State organisations, bringing great experience. Some of them are retired and giving their time and effort voluntarily. What would be the management cost of the new regional companies and who would supervise the allocation process? The essence of MABS is about direct access at local levels to the communities it serves. Managing remotely has its own difficulties, hurdles and perspectives.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Deputy and I appreciate the time he has given to me. Tomorrow, a group is coming from the MABS organisations throughout the country to do a presentation on this in the audio-visual room. There are 51 boards, each of which is independent and managed by local people from the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, the Garda Síochána, the Department of Social Protection and various agencies and organisations in the communities where they exist. They have local knowledge and input and they give their time freely to manage the organisations. The system works perfectly and without a hitch, and has done since the establishment of the MABS organisations.

The MABS companies have an excellent model for value for money. The spend 80% of their funds on the salaries of the people who provide the front-line services. The other 20% goes to rent the offices and pay overheads.

It is absolutely perfect and it works well with no issues. The situation is that a group in the Citizens Information Board, CIB, wants to regionalise the set-up of existing services, assigning them to eight different regions, and employ a manager to run each agency in each region. I fear it is intended to privatise the service, like Seetec which provides services through JobPath and which has turned into a total disaster for the public. We do not want to let this service go down that road.

The Minister needs to issue a policy directive to the CIB under section 9 of the Citizens Information Act 2007 not to regionalise these boards. It was done before in 2009 by a previous Minister and it can be done again. This issue can be resolved. There is a perfect system working well, providing a good service and which is not broken. There is no reason to change it. The only reason seems to be that some people in the Civil Service have decided they would like to have regional organisations and structures, set up boards and get money for running up and down the country for different meetings. The reality is that the system is working and we do not want it changed. People are getting an excellent service. The only problem is that there are not enough advisers from the Money Advice & Budgeting Service, MABS, on the ground. That is what needs to change. It is not about putting more money into providing managers to run a system which is not broken.

I know the Minister of State will have a reply from someone in the Civil Service, telling him to read out the answer. We are not interested in that answer. We are interested in a bit of common sense being applied. Even after being in the Government for only nine months, the Minister of State still has a bit of common sense left which I hope can be magnified today and a solution can be provided.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Minister of State has a great amount of common sense.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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We better not tell that to the other Minister, Deputy Shane Ross.

Finian McGrath (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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We can leave Lord Ross out of it.

I thank Deputies Penrose and Martin Kenny for their words. I hope we have a bit of common sense when we deal with this particular issue. I am taking this matter for the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Varadkar, who apologises that he cannot be here.

The CIB, which receives Exchequer funding from the Department of Social Protection, is responsible for supporting the provision of information, advice, including money and budgeting advice, and advocacy on a wide range of public and social services. The CIB delivers on its legislative remit through direct provision of information services and by supporting a network of delivery partners including the local Citizens Information Service, CIS, and MABS.

One of the strategic priorities for the CIB, as articulated in its strategic plan 2015 to 2018, is “to revise the structures of CIS and MABS to better serve the citizen by improving management structures and governance, managing of resources and the delivery of high quality services”. The existing network comprises 93 independent local companies, 42 CIS companies and 51 MABS companies, each with its own legal responsibility to provide services within their defined catchment area. These 93 companies have 93 individual boards, with an average of 9.2 people serving on each board. This results in a governance structure of more than 800 people for an organisation of approximately 2,800 people. Maintaining this company structure across each of these local boards consumes valuable administrative resources within the network that could otherwise be directed towards service delivery to citizens.

Small services have similar structures to larger services, with each service performing its own company administration, financial administration and reporting, including reporting to the CIB. Consolidation of board structures would reduce duplication, deliver administrative efficiencies and free up resources for more front-line activities. In turn, this would improve the service-user experience, allow for the development of specialist roles as required and achieve an improved consistency in service delivery across the network. A more streamlined service delivery partner model would also assist CIB in the fulfilment of its statutory obligations, help to promote awareness of the wide range of services and supports available to citizens on behalf of Government. In so doing, it would further raise the profile of both MABS and the CIS.

The CIB’s role in the development, operational management and oversight of the current network of individual companies requires significant administrative effort. Its many responsibilities include oversight of accounts and operations of all service delivery partner companies in keeping with good accounting practices and the implementation of recommendations from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General; compliance with the code of practice for the governance of State bodies; ensuring optimal access for citizens countrywide to the full range of CIS and MABS services; and the delivery of consistency of services in terms of quality and timeliness on a nationwide basis.

Since the circulation to all CIS and MABS services in September 2014 of a feasibility study commissioned by the board of the CIB on a proposed restructure of these services, there has been extensive and continued consultation with all stakeholders about what the future structural model would look like. To progress this work further, the board of the CIB recently established a restructuring sub-committee, which comprises several CIB board members, a number of staff of the CIB, and representatives of CIS and MABS services.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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I thank the Minister of State for his reply. I have spoken to several personnel involved and all they have heard are these global assertions and utterances that the current situation and structures need to be reformed from a governance viewpoint. Where is the empirical evidence to sustain this? I note the review group is all made up of the CIB. That is like going to law with the devil and the court is held in hell. It is the CIB which wants to emasculate the existing structure. The Minister of State does not need to tell me about the 2,800 staff. They are not costing a tosser as they are free. This is all nonsense.

When we were in government, we made a bags of doing away with town councils. I accept there were some councils where one got elected with only 40 or 50 votes. However, we rushed to regionalise town councils which represented 4,000 people and in the process destroyed local government. I admit we did not keep our eye on that ball. This is the same. I have my eye on this ball, however, and I am not going to allow the same mistake happen. Once bitten, twice shy. I am very shy about this matter. It is a nonsense. I know those involved in the services in Longford and Westmeath and one could not get them for love or money. They are providing a service for nothing.

Section 9 of the Citizens Information Act 2007 gives the Minister a bit of power. It is great to have a little bit of power sometimes because it allows the Minister to tell bureaucrats to back off. I am a great believer in that. The Minister should just tell the mandarins and bureaucrats to settle down. This service is operating well and the structures should be left intact. The Minister should speak to the people involved directly. They will be prepared to accommodate change which is positive and for the benefit of the end users, such as those in mortgage difficulties and in the Abhaile programme. The Minister cannot travel down this road. We have travelled them enough already.

Finian McGrath (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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I take Deputy Penrose’s point about the town councils. It was a bad decision at the time.

The restructuring sub-committee is expected to report its findings on the optimal regional structure for CIS and MABS companies to the board of the CIB shortly. It is important to remember that the planned restructuring of services is at local company board level only.

I will bring the Deputies’ concerns about section 9 of the Citizens Information Act 2007 and the restructuring of the organisations to the attention of the Minister for Social Protection.