Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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55. To ask the Minister for Social Protection his proposals to extend more social insurance cover to self-employed persons including a form of jobseeker's benefit whereby a person's business fails or they can no longer continue working in their profession or trade; and when it will be implemented. [2756/17]

Tony McLoughlin (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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62. To ask the Minister for Social Protection the action he has taken to date to support self-employed persons here; the plans in place to extend benefits to this sector; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2738/17]

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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I ask the Minister to outline his objectives and the policy he will pursue to try to achieve a just and equitable resolution for the self-employed in the application of the social welfare system, given the fact there are over 300,000 self-employed people across the country. They act as employers as well as employees at various times and provide vital employment but they have been omitted from the benefits of social welfare provision up to this point in time.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 55 and 62 together.

The Government is committed to encouraging self-employment and entrepreneurship. This includes enhancing the position of the self-employed through a supportive tax regime and, very importantly, improving the level of PRSI-based benefits available to self-employed people. This has been one of my key priorities since becoming Minister in this Department.

On budget day I was pleased to announce important measures which will directly benefit the self-employed. From March 2017, the self-employed will have access to the treatment benefit scheme, which includes free eye and dental examinations, and contributions towards the cost of hearing aids. Treatment benefit entitlements will also be extended from October 2017 to provide further dental and optical benefits. More significantly, self-employed contributors will be eligible to apply for the invalidity pension from December 2017. For the first time, this will give the self-employed access to the safety net of State income supports if they become permanently incapable of work as a result of an illness or disability, without having to go through a means test. This is a real advance in the level of cover available to the self-employed.

I plan to continue extending cover for the self-employed to other benefits on a phased basis in future budgets. Throughout 2017 my Department will examine the extension of social insurance to cover other risks and contingencies, including, crucially, developing proposals on a form of jobseeker's benefit where a person's business fails or where they can no longer continue working in their profession or trade. I look forward to making further improvements in the years ahead.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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Self-employed people have acknowledged that the Minister is making inroads and some significant improvements, which are very welcome. To have invalidity pension coming in from December and the extension of ancillary benefits, such as dental and optical benefits, coming in from March is very welcome. However, the two big bugbears for the self-employed are in regard to illness benefit and jobseeker's benefit. Basically, the social welfare system tells them to pay their class S contributions but they must never get ill or become unemployed, which is incongruous to say the least.

The self-employed are working from when they get out of bed until they go to bed at night. They are great people who keep this country going. They are also tax collectors but they get no benefit from that, although they have to pay accountants and everybody else. Nobody does more, and nobody did more during the recession, to keep this country going than the self-employed. However, nobody was more disdainfully treated within the social welfare system than the self-employed. They were treated like beggars in their first encounter with the social welfare system, when they were asked to account for their income for the last year. It was like being asked where was the snow that came last January. It was a nonsense. The former Minister, Deputy Burton, eventually changed that. I was very angry about it as I come from a self-employed background myself. There is nothing in it for people except to keep paying and keep complying, but get nothing.

Illness benefit and jobseeker's benefit are critical in order to deal with the issue of the self-employed. These people actually get ill more often than anybody else because of the nature of the work they are exposed to.

Tony McLoughlin (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I want to support my colleague and I am sure every Member of the House is concerned in respect of the self-employed. I have many in my constituency who are very concerned and I have highlighted this issue to the Minister previously. It is important people are recognised for the work they are doing on the ground. These people tell me they are paying a stamp but they are getting no benefits as a result.

I know the Minister is in the process of reviewing this to make it acceptable to self-employed people. I think that-----

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy. I am trying to accommodate all Deputies because others may ask supplementary questions. I call Deputies Brady and Willie O'Dea.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I have a supplementary question. When the Minister came before the Committee on Social Protection last December, I asked whether discussions had started with the opticians and dentists. He said he was starting that process. Perhaps he will take this opportunity to outline how these discussions are going, whether he thinks the deadline of March is achievable and whether there are any foreseen difficulties with either sector. I imagine discussions are well advanced with both sectors at this stage.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Minister for clarification. I know the advisory committee on extending benefits to the self-employed recommended that they be extended in cases of illness but not where the business simply fails and that a self-employed person should be entitled to jobseeker's benefit. Did I hear the Minister say he intends to extend benefits in both directions? Businesses can fail because somebody gets ill but they can also fail because they can fail. We are trying to encourage people to go into business. This means there should be some sort of a social protection underpinning guaranteed income for them if the business fails. Does he intend to extend this beyond illness benefit to jobseeker's benefit?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputies for raising the important issue of the self-employed. This is a real priority for me, having been self-employed myself. My dad and my grandad were too. I always said if I was ever in this position, I would try to do something about it. Sometimes, though, self-employed people are unaware of what they are entitled to. I hear self-employed people all the time saying they pay class S PRSI and get nothing. To put on the record what self-employed people do get, they get the contributory State pension, in addition to any other pensions they may have, with no means test. If one had to raise that money oneself, one would need a pension fund of €350,000. They also get maternity benefit and, since last September, paternity benefit. If they die before they retire, the widow, widower or survivor gets a non-means-tested pension too. Therefore, they already get quite a lot. I am adding to this the treatment benefits and long-term illness benefits, which is the invalidity pension this year. That only leaves two payments, namely, short-term illness benefit and jobseeker's benefit, and we need to do a bit of work on them, quite frankly. It is very straightforward when an employee loses his or her job: he or she gets a P45. It is less clear when this happens in the case of somebody who is self-employed. Similarly, when it comes to illness, when one is paid on an hourly basis, it is pretty easy to work out these things. If one is a barrister, or a doctor for that matter, and gets paid in lumps, questions arise as to which lump he or she was sick for and how much must be paid.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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Barristers do not get paid at all.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Many of these different matters must be figured out. It is not straightforward. We must also take into account that at the moment we give the self-employed all these benefits for a contribution of 4%. An employee pays 4% and his or her employer pays 10.75% on his or her behalf for these benefits. Therefore, for every self-employed person earning €100, the Social Insurance Fund gets €4; for every employee earning €100, the Social Insurance Fund gets €14. This needs to be borne in mind as well.

Regarding Deputy O'Dea's question, I do not agree with the findings of the report. We should put something in place regarding jobseeker's benefit. It may well be on the basis he himself proposed, that is, that it be on a voluntary basis with an additional contribution to do so. That might be the way to do it. I am meeting the dentists again on Saturday. I have scheduled another meeting with the opticians. Negotiations are going well. I still hope and expect to meet the deadline.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister has exceeded his time.