Dáil debates

Tuesday, 6 December 2016

Ceisteanna - Questions

Taoiseach's Meetings and Engagements

4:00 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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7. To ask the Taoiseach if he met Scotland's First Minister, Ms Nicola Sturgeon, when she was in Dublin; the issues discussed; and if Scottish unity was mentioned. [37348/16]

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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8. To ask the Taoiseach his plans for a bilateral meeting with the Scottish First Minister regarding Brexit. [37411/16]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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9. To ask the Taoiseach if he met Scotland's First Minister, Ms Nicola Sturgeon, when she was visiting Dublin on 29 November 2016; and the issues they discussed. [37699/16]

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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10. To ask the Taoiseach if he met the First Minister of Scotland, Ms Nicola Sturgeon, during her recent visit to Dublin. [38638/16]

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 7 to 10, inclusive, together.

Diary constraints, including my visit to the Vatican and a meeting with Prime Minister Muscat of Malta as part of his pre-EU Presidency tour of capitals, meant that it was not possible for me to meet First Minister Sturgeon during her recent trip to Dublin. In recognition of these constraints, I arranged instead a bilateral meeting with the First Minister in Cardiff on 25 November, as we were both due to attend a summit of the British-Irish Council there.

The meeting was a useful opportunity to discuss the growing bilateral relations between Scotland and Ireland and our perspectives on the United Kingdom's withdrawal from the European Union. We agreed that, whatever the outcome of the Brexit negotiations, we both wanted to maintain and develop bilateral relations between our two countries. While the First Minister was clear that she was contemplating options to keep Scotland in the Single Market, we did not discuss the prospect of Scottish independence.

While in Dublin, First Minister Sturgeon met my colleague, the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Charles Flanagan, to continue those discussions.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. He stated he met Scotland's First Minister, Ms Nicola Sturgeon, at the British-Irish Council meeting in Cardiff, rather than in Dublin. I am glad the bilateral relationship is still strong and warm and that Ireland and Scotland share many common interests. Did the Taoiseach discuss with the First Minister the various scenarios in terms of Scotland remaining within the European Union? Is it the intention or desire of the First Minister that Scotland remain within the European Union? How does Scotland see itself in terms of the broader United Kingdom negotiations with the European Union?

I take it that First Minister Sturgeon was, as she has stated publicly, absolutely committed to Scotland retaining access to the Single Market because it is, to use her words, "the least worst outcome". Did the Taoiseach discuss with the First Minister her meeting with the British Prime Minister, Ms Theresa May, in October? What is instructive is that following that meeting, the First Minister said that from everything she had "heard today in Downing Street there isn't yet a UK Government negotiating position."

Does the Taoiseach agree with the First Minister's assessment of the British Government position being one that is devoid of a clear negotiating position? Given that the Taoiseach is on record as saying that there has to be some accommodation, understanding, reflection or acknowledgement of the majority vote in Scotland being to remain in the European Union, did he discuss with the First Minister the idea that at some time in the future Scotland will either remain or be part of the European Union? I accept the Taoiseach's assurance that the issue of independence was not discussed. Nonetheless in the overall mix, in terms of the interaction between the UK, the European Union and Scotland, what is his assessment of where Scotland will want to go in terms of the Brexit issue?

4:10 pm

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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On the point made by Deputy Micheál Martin in regard to the clearly enunciated view of the Scottish First Minister that she wants a bespoke deal for the people of Scotland, in the same way as many have argued that a bespoke deal is required for the people of Northern Ireland, both of which by a significant majority voted to remain part of the European Union, has the Taoiseach, domestically or at European Union level, sought or received any legal advices on the feasibility, legally, of a special deal being done for Scotland or Northern Ireland? Has he had any discussions with the Scottish First Minister on her understanding of the legal possibility, within the architecture of the European Union, of part of the UK being permitted to remain in the European Union or to have a deal that pertains to it only and not the remainder of the United Kingdom at the time when the remainder of the UK exits the European Union?

Some of us had the privilege of meeting the First Minister of Scotland in Dublin. It would not be unfair to characterise her view of the British negotiating position as opaque. Would that be the Taoiseach's understanding based on his direct discussions with the Scottish First Minister? As I understand it, in terms of all of her interactions with the British negotiators, she did not come away with clarity as to what the UK position would be.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Most people I spoke to were very pleased with the tone of the visit of the First Minister, Ms Nicola Sturgeon. As the Taoiseach is aware, she has been forthright in indicating her preference that Scotland remain in the European Single Market. She has also said that a referendum on Scottish independence is on the cards. I believe people here are impressed by that type of leadership.

In regard to Ireland, there is a recognition at EU level of the special circumstances that pertain to the island of Ireland and so it is entirely rational to argue for the North to be designated special status within the EU, which is what the people voted there for. There are precedents for doing that. It is also logical, rational and compulsory for a Taoiseach to argue for Irish unity. In her address to the Seanad, the First Minister, Ms Nicola Sturgeon, said that we are living in unprecedented times and these unprecedented times require imagination, open minds and fresh thinking. We need to ensure political stability, economic prosperity, trade relationships and jobs on the island of Ireland if we are enhance all sections of our community. I ask the Taoiseach to reflect on the First Minister's statement to the Seanad that we are living in unprecedented times in response to which we need imagination, open minds and fresh thinking. In my view, as a member of the European Union we have an obligation, and the right to do so, to bring forward a proposal, under Article 48 of the treaty of the European Union, for Northern Ireland to be given the special status for which Sinn Féin and others have been advocating and for the people of the North voted.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I had a very good meeting with the First Minister, Ms Nicola Sturgeon, in Cardiff, at which we discussed a wide range of issues. I welcome that she was invited to address Seanad Éireann, where I understand she gave a very good account of herself. We did discuss the offices that have been opened in Dublin and Scotland in respect of Irish-Scottish business and we both agreed that we should develop the opportunities for trade both ways. I expect that trade to be enhanced in the time ahead.

The First Minister was very clear about what she wants. The vote of Scotland being one to remain, the real priority for her is access to the Single Market. As stated by Deputies Micheál Martin, Howlin and Adams, if the European Council was asked to make a decision on the Brexit situation it could not do so because as the British Government has not yet triggered Article 50, there is no clarity as to what the ask is or in regard to the position being put forward. In other words the question remains if Britain proposes to withdraw from the Single Market and the customs Union, or if it proposes to withdraw from the Single Market and remain within the customs Union. All of these are issues that have an impact. As Mr. Barnier pointed out, whatever the decision there will be an impact.

As I said, I have spoken to the First Minister, Ms Sturgeon. She fully understands and respects the position of Ireland as a country that will be remaining as a member of the European Union and she does not want to interfere in any way in that regard. She also appreciates that we do understand Scotland's real priority in this matter. I note that the First Minister has confirmed to her party that the Independence Referendum Bill will be published for consultation. That process is under way. I have not sought legal advice on behalf of Scotland in respect of special status. It is not my place to do so.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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What about Northern Ireland?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is a matter for the Scottish Assembly and the Scottish people.

On Deputy Adams's point about Northern Ireland and a united Ireland, as I have said on my occasions I defend the principles that are contained in the Good Friday Agreement and successive agreements that allow for that opportunity to be dealt with were it to present itself. As Deputy Adams is only too well aware, the Good Friday Agreement allows for that. I have made the point publicly before that whatever negotiations take place, the language should reflect that the co-guarantor aspect should be continued. The Good Friday Agreement is an internationally legally binding agreement that holds out that principle and opportunity at some point if the will of the people were such.

On the issue of special status, we already have it. We should not be seeking to commence a process of seeking new special status. We are in a position whereby Europe recognises and supports the peace process, in respect of which it provides benefits and has done so for many years. The next programme runs until 2020. This does not apply anywhere else within the European Union. There is no other peace process. There will be no other land borders when Britain exits the EU. There are no other INTERREG or PEACE funds. That is a particular circumstance that does not apply anywhere else. If the suggestion is that we should allow that to peter out and should then ask for something else we are into a different kind of argument.

It is really important that we understand very clearly that what Europe has supported to date, along with the United States and elsewhere, needs to be kept in situ.

One may call that whatever one wants: I call it a particular set of circumstances that apply here in regard to Northern Ireland. I would much prefer it if we had greater clarity, which we will not have until the Prime Minister decides, within her rights, to move Article 50. Within the party in the House of Commons, there are those who express frustration over a lack of clarity on the position being put forward by Britain. I hope that comes reasonably quickly.