Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am raising the issue of appointments to State boards in the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport because I would like to hear the Minister's proposals to fill the vacancies that exist. The volume of vacancies in the Department is quite phenomenal. My understanding, which is based on the figures I have seen, is that on 23 November last there were 36 vacancies across the various agencies under the Minister's remit. There are three vacancies in Iarnród Éireann, which has many issues, as we all know. There are vacancies in the Road Safety Authority and Sport Ireland. Some very important chairmanships are coming up as well. A further 16 places will become vacant by the end of the year, including a number of important roles and chairmanships. This is all public information. I have drawn it from information provided by the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport.

Why is the Minister not filling these positions? Does he believe he is fulfilling his mandate - his seal of office - and doing his job on behalf of Irish taxpayers, which is to ensure all of these agencies are functioning to the best of their ability? Given that the Minister has made virtually no appointments - there have been some appointees - how can we be certain that many of these boards have the expertise to function? A range of organisations with massive budgets need auditors and people with audit and financial experience. Will the Minister confirm to the House that expertise in finance and other specialist areas is available across the suite of organisations under his remit to meet the needs of those organisations at board level? I want him to give the House a guarantee that this is the case. Why is the Minister not filling these positions? There is a need across these boards for these positions to be filled.

I have spoken to some of the people involved in these organisations. They simply cannot function if these roles are not filled. I have spoken to the chair of one of the larger and more important organisations under the Minister's remit. He told me that if this impasse continues for the next few weeks, the board of the organisation in question will not be able to function at the optimum level because it will not have the expertise in place. Will the Minister confirm to the House that he has met every chair of every organisation within his remit, or at least the chairs of the larger critically important organisations across the wide range of organisations under his remit? Will he confirm to me that he has the knowledge, capacity and awareness to be assured that despite the failure to fill these vacancies, he is not concerned that these boards will not be able to function? Does he trust his officials? Does he believe the Public Appointments Service system is fit for purpose? Does he trust that system? Does he trust his officials to put in front of him the names of people who are competent enough to fill these vital positions? If he does, why is he not accepting the Public Appointments Service system and the recommendations of his officials who give him a list from which to choose?

Shane Ross (Dublin Rathdown, Independent)
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I thank Deputy Kelly for raising this issue and for giving me an opportunity to respond and address the matter. I know he has a great deal of interest in these issues. I am sure he understands the complex nature of the system of making appointments to State boards and the extraordinary responsibility it entails. It is not a matter that can be treated in a trivial way by any Member of this House or any Minister. The system is in constant need of improvement. Indeed, the Government of which Deputy Kelly was a member attempted to improve the system in November 2014 by issuing new guidelines to address the issue of State boards.

Since my appointment as Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, I have made a number of reappointments but have not yet made any appointments to State boards from the Public Appointments Service process. To date, I have made 16 reappointments, with three further reappointments of employee representatives to the CIE subsidiary companies with effect from 1 December 2016. As Minister, I do not necessarily have to fill all of the vacancies on each board. I am currently considering the size of the boards under my remit and the need or otherwise to fill each vacancy. My view is that some of the boards are unnecessarily large for the size of the State body in question. I am reviewing this within the flexibility of the underlying statutory provisions. It is very important to review not just the individual membership of boards, but also the boards themselves by comparing them with the boards of companies of a similar size. We must consider whether some of them are top-heavy, whether some appointments have been made for the wrong reasons and whether it is necessary for some boards to have double-digit numbers of directors when that does not do the Exchequer or, necessarily, the company any favours.

I have stated in the past my view that, in seeking a process for the appointment of directors to State boards, I want to do so in a manner that gives me the greatest certainty that the best appointments are being made. The current guidelines for appointments to State boards do not go far enough, in my view. To answer the Deputy's question, I have asked my Department to review the guidelines with a view to putting in additional internal processes that would allow me to make appointments with greater confidence in the ability of the selected person to contribute effectively to a State board. I do not feel that appointing someone on the basis of their curriculum vitae alone is acceptable. There must be a more satisfactory way of doing these things, and I am trying to devise one that supplements the current procedures.

Together with the Secretary General of my Department, other officials and other people, I am currently considering means by which the appointment processes within my Department can be enhanced to ensure, in so far as is possible, this can be achieved. The Deputy can expect news on this front very shortly. I do not want in any way to stray from the current guidelines at present, although the new ones are on the way. I wish to improve the guidelines and set in place a process whereby we can be more certain we are getting people who are qualified for the positions. Together with the Secretary General of my Department, I am considering means by which this can be done. I look forward to the outcome of the review of the guidelines on appointments to State boards being carried out by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform. I believe the report is currently with the Minister for his consideration.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I thank the Minister for coming to the House today, given that, previously, he was never available, and for explaining his position. I have to say it is perplexing. To be frank, pursuant to the relevant Acts of the Oireachtas, I do not believe the Minister is actually doing his job. There are a number of boards which will not be able to function if this vacuum persists. Will the Minister at least guarantee to the House, given he refused to answer the previous question, that all boards have all competencies covered and the Minister has met with all chairs of all the organisations to confirm same? If he has not, then he is in neglect of his duty as a Minister. I know this because I sat there and did a similar job. The Minister has to make sure that all boards have the competencies. According to my sources, some of them do not and others will not have in the coming weeks. That is unacceptable and is negligence on the Minister's part.

The Minister is adopting a specific view in regard to the Public Appointments Service, PAS. I take it he does not have confidence in PAS. I take it he has little confidence in his own officials who make recommendations to him. He says there must be more than a curriculum vitae to decide somebody's competence. He often spoke when he was a journalist, and also last night with Claire Byrne, although it was not live, about cronyism. Cronyism is appointing people who are not competent to do the job. These people come through PAS and its officials. They are obviously competent or they would not have got through that strenuous process, a process that, dare I say it, was not used when it came to filling Ms Hunt's or Tony Williams' position as special adviser to the Minister. Why can there be one rule when it comes to appointing certain people to advise the Minister, and be on the taxpayers' payroll, and another rule when it comes to the fact the Minister will not fill the roles that are necessary across the board to keep the competencies in order to ensure taxpayers are protected and the Minister can have faith and confidence in board members?

Shane Ross (Dublin Rathdown, Independent)
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I thank the Deputy for raising this matter and giving me the opportunity to respond to some of the things he said, many of which he knows nothing about, quite obviously, from what he said.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is frankly insulting.

Shane Ross (Dublin Rathdown, Independent)
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It is quite apparent, from what he says, that he has not done very thorough research. I would add that I have total confidence in all my officials, who are doing an extraordinarily good job. I would not agree with everything they put in front of me, and it is not my job to do so, but the idea they were doing things in bad faith is absolutely absurd.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Who said that?

Shane Ross (Dublin Rathdown, Independent)
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That is absurd. What we are doing is discussing-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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On a point of order, I do not know what the Minister is referring to. He might clarify who he is referring to in regard to bad faith.

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister might clarify that.

Shane Ross (Dublin Rathdown, Independent)
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The Deputy asked me if I had confidence in my officials and the answer to that is absolutely, yes.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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He has not answered the question.

Shane Ross (Dublin Rathdown, Independent)
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Fully and totally, I have answered the question.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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On a point of order, I asked a question in regard to bad faith and he still has not answered it.

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I ask you to resume your seat and allow the Minister to continue.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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He has not answered the question.

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I will chair the debate. The Minister, without interruption.

Shane Ross (Dublin Rathdown, Independent)
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I have full confidence in them. I have full confidence in their advice. I have full confidence that what they are doing and what they are advising is done in good faith. I may not agree with them - I am not there to agree with them about everything. What we are trying to do, and the Deputy may find it difficult to understand, is to improve the current PAS system. We will continue to try to improve that and we will be making some announcements shortly which will please the Deputy because I know he is genuinely, in good faith, looking for improvements in this system, which has many faults. It will be improved. I will improve it with the assistance of the officials who have sat looking at these things for a very long time.