Dáil debates

Tuesday, 22 November 2016

Topical Issue Debate

Citizens Assembly

6:15 pm

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I thank the Office of the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this matter.

With respect to Government-sponsored forums, there is a clear and important need for the highest measures of impartiality and independence to be observed if we wish to avoid the charge that such forums are merely proxy vehicles designed to implement Government policies. I have a particular concern about what is perhaps the most important Government-sponsored forum that is currently deliberating, namely the so-called Citizens Assembly.

There are mounting concerns about the composition of the expert panel and the robustness of the selection methodology that was employed by the Red C polling company. The published details on the membership of the Citizens Assembly reveal that no fewer than 11 counties in the State do not have a single representative in the deliberations of the assembly. Citizens from counties Tipperary, Leitrim, Cavan, Louth, Sligo, Longford, Offaly, Kilkenny, Carlow, Waterford and Kerry are entirely absent, which cannot be accepted. In light of this information, the pretence that the assembly is a remotely democratic process cannot be maintained. It is being asked to deliberate and recommend profound changes to the Constitution of the nation that will affect all of us, born and unborn, for generations to come. Yet, counties with a combined population of at least 970,000 people have not one representative.

From the outset serious questions have been raised about the integrity of this absurd process which has been established as a parallel legislative body to the Oireachtas. This is deeply concerning in its own right, and I made my views known about this several times. There is an imperative to question the validity of the entire process and the robustness of the polling methodology that was employed to select members by Red C. Why, for instance, despite Red C specifically reminding people who were polled that active campaigners on either side of the issues were to be excluded, was at least one high-profile social media campaigner for repeal selected? The person has now been removed.

I have total faith in Ms Justice Laffoy. Unfortunately, of the five people chosen as expert advisers, two have previously stated positions that raise serious concerns questions over their suitability. They were appointed by the Government - the Minister might tell me by whom. In 2000 Dr. Declan Keane, when he was master of Holles Street, gave evidence before an Oireachtas all-party committee on the Constitution. In the course of his testimony he expressed dissatisfaction that abortions for fatal abnormalities could not be performed in Irish hospitals. Since the question of whether the Constitution should be amended to allow for abortions for so-called fatal fetal abnormalities is one of the key issues on which the assembly will be called on to give its opinion, it is surely inappropriate that one of the supposedly impartial experts should be someone with a clearly stated position on one side of this controversial question.

Even more problematic than Dr. Keane, however, is the presence of Professor Deirdre Madden from University College Cork. She has a long record on a range of issues related to human life and dignity. Professor Madden joined the commission on human reproduction set up by the former Minister, Deputy Micheál l Martin. The commission issued its controversial report in 2005 and recommended that destructive research on human embryos should be permitted. Prominent among Professor Madden's activities and particularly relevant is her membership of the expert group established by the Department of Health to study the options available to comply with rulings of the European Court of human rights on the cases of A, B and C v.Ireland. Not one of the options endorsed by this group excluded abortion.

Some 900,000 people have been excluded from the process. We now find that the expert group is not fit-for-purpose. I have great faith in Ms Justice Laffoy being able to deal with the assembly. She will rely heavily on so-called eminent people to advise her. If they have this record, how did they get through the ropes? How are they allowed in? Serious questions need to be answered by the Government.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I remind Members that we cannot allow charges to be made in the House against people who are not here.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy McGrath for raising this matter.

I wish to begin by saying that the text that will be circulated to him deals with the general issue of consultation on Government-sponsored forums. The Deputy raised a specific matter, namely the Constitutional assembly and its role in the consideration of matters such as the status of the Eighth amendment of the Constitution. As opposed to giving the Deputy a text that does not address his question, I will do my best to answer his points. I, on behalf of the Government, will then come back to him imminently with an answer to the issues he has raised.

I wish to first acknowledge that Deputy McGrath recognised the impartiality and expertise of the chairperson of the assembly, Ms Justice Laffoy. He was at pains to recognise her ability and impartiality to do good work on behalf of the State.

The Deputy raised two issues. The first is his concern about the expert advisers that are open to the body and the second is the selection criteria that led to the appointment of the assembly. On the latter, it is my understanding that the Department of the Taoiseach, which oversees the body, used selection criteria that came up with a group of people who are representative of the country overall. The reason why that may have led to some counties being excluded is that, as I understand it, the role of members of the assembly is not to represent the views of their communities or counties. Rather, it is to represent their own views. The selection criteria, as I understand it, that was carried out by Red C tried to come up with a group of people whose body of opinion would reflect where Ireland is at the moment rather than a group of people who represented the geographical distribution of population across our country.

However, I will double-check the point and revert to the Deputy with an answer from the Department of the Taoiseach on the matter.

On the composition of the group of expert advisers available to the assembly, a difficulty that Ms Justice Laffoy and the organisers of the assembly may well face is that the number of people in the country who have expertise in the area is, I imagine, limited. If these people have built up expertise in the area, at some point in their professional careers they will either have been involved in the issue or had an opinion on it. Given the scale of the country, it would be difficult to establish a group of advisers who have been involved in what is a very important matter but have never expressed an opinion on it. However, I am confident that those who are being employed by the State to advise the assembly will be able to give impartial views on the matter.

Ultimately this is an assembly which will in no way challenge the democratic workings of this House. The assembly will produce a report that will be brought before the Oireachtas to be considered by it and which may then lead to a vote by the people. Even if the Deputy's worst fears were to materialise, although I do not believe that they will, this is only one part of an entire process which, at each stage, will involve either the Oireachtas or the direct expression of the views of the people.

6:25 pm

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I accept the Minister will revert to me on the specific issues, but I am disappointed with his reply. He stated that the Department of the Taoiseach set up this group of advisers. Last week I asked the Taoiseach if he was satisfied with this five-member group and he said he was. I have read into the record pertinent reasons demonstrating how two of them are totally unsuitable for the role.

The Minister stated that the assembly would represent where Ireland is at at the moment. I do not wish to be in any way disrespectful to the Minister, who is a Dublin-based Deputy, but, sadly, he is mistaken if he thinks disallowing 11 counties from having any representative is a fair representation of Ireland. To me, that is downright insulting. It is pedantic and silly of the Minister to say it. How could he? What about the good people of Tipperary, Kerry, the mid west and the south? These people vote and are actively involved in the political system. Do we want to turn off the tap on them? We cannot do that. I put it to the Minister that the Taoiseach has not answered the question. I have the greatest respect for Ms Justice Laffoy, who has a hard job to do, as well as those who have been selected for the assembly. However, we cannot have a flawed selection process that left 11 counties with no representation, including my county of Tipperary.

The Minister said that there are not many people in Ireland with the relevant experience and influence. How well the two who had experience in several were picked. Prominent and particularly relevant among Professor Madden's activity is-----

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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-----her membership of the expert group set up by the Department of Health to study options available to comply with a ruling of the European Court of Human Rights in the A, B and C case. How lucky it was her.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Deputy listen to the Chair?

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I will, of course.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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Do not reference people who are not in the Chamber.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I accept that, but they are on the-----

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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Please, I am only asking the Deputy to be careful. He has only a few seconds left.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I accept that, but the Acting Chairman took up some of my time so he might allow me get it back.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Very little of it.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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How come these two people with their track records could be chosen? Let us be fair. The wool is not being pulled over anyone's eyes. This five-member group cannot go ahead in this construct nor can an assembly that disallows 11 counties. I will be fair and objective with anyone and let people represent the country, but it is not possible when 11 counties are left out. There are also question marks-----

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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No more questions.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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-----over the RED C polling company and how it carried this out. Did it contact enough people? Did it contact people in Tipperary and those other counties?

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I did my best to respond to the specific matters raised by Deputy McGrath, because I felt he was due an answer on the issues he raised about the assembly. As I stated, I will now ensure that the Deputy receives a response on the specific issue raised as opposed to the general matter of the criteria for consultation on Government-sponsored fora, which was the subject matter of this Topical Issue. There needs to be a presumption of good faith on the part of both sides of the debate.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Have fair ground rules so.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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With respect, I do not think it is fair to say that because the Deputy has a concern about the process it is automatically, to use the Deputy's phrase, "a flawed one".

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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It is flawed.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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My understanding is that this process was to select a group of people that would be representative of our country overall. The Deputy has raised the fair point on the exclusion of particular counties from the panel.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Eleven of them.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes; I heard the Deputy. I will raise the matter with the Department overseeing the process and will ask it to respond directly to the Deputy on the point. As I stated earlier, I believe this process can work. The reason for a process such as this one is that we have seen how it worked on other matters.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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It is a bad combination. The Government cannot do that.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy comes into this House seeking a debate on the matter and I am delighted to answer his questions, but every time I give an answer that Deputy McGrath is not happy with-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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The Minister has not answered my question.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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-----he challenges it.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Cá bhfuil an freagra?

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I wanted to respond to the Deputy on the matters he has raised in a reasonable way and I have done so. I will also-----

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister has given a commitment to revert to the Deputy.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I will ensure the Deputy receives an answer in respect of those matters on which I cannot give an answer now.