Dáil debates

Tuesday, 22 November 2016

Other Questions

Social Welfare Appeals

6:05 pm

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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55. To ask the Minister for Social Protection his plans to reform the social protection appeals system, in view of the almost 60% appeal success rate in 2015 which was highlighted as a concern by the UN; if he will publish the results of all appeals made through this office; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [36053/16]

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The country rapporteur for the UN Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights commented in June 2015 that Ireland continued to take austerity measures and to focus on cutting the budget and that rates of poverty, including food poverty, and youth unemployment had increased. At the same UN committee, concern was expressed at the high number of initial social welfare decisions which were overturned at the appeal stage. The UN committee recommended that appeals be decided in a consistent and transparent manner and that the appropriate training be provided to decision makers at first instance. Will the Minister consider introducing reforms to the appeals process and do so soon?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I acknowledge that the Deputy is correct to say that after the period of recession and economic crisis, poverty and youth unemployment increased. They have also been falling in recent years as a consequence of the recovery. In fact, youth unemployment has pretty much halved in the last couple of years. I am sure it was an omission, but the Deputy did not quite acknowledge that.

Over 1.7 million new claims were processed in 2015, 85% of which were awarded. The number and outcome of appeals finalised must be considered in this context. Of the 25,406 appeals finalised in 2015, 58.8%, or 14,946, were successful. However, this does not mean that the initial decision was incorrect. An appellant may submit additional information which allows the Department to revise its decision without involving an appeals officer. Of favourable appeal decisions in 2015, 35%, or 5,200, resulted from revised decisions. Where decisions remain unchanged, the appeal proceeds to an appeals officer who will accept evidence at all stages of the process and this may impact on the decision. The appeals officer may also gain insights at oral hearing into the appellant's circumstances which lead to a favourable outcome. The appeals officer's role is to examine entitlement as if for the first time, not to check that the original decision was valid. The officer looks at cases afresh. Given the degree of subjectivity in some scheme criteria, it is reasonable that a second decision maker might make a different decision to the first.

The publication of appeal decisions would be a vast undertaking requiring the allocation of significant resources. This would undoubtedly have a knock-on effect on how long it would take to process appeals. In 2011, the courts found, given the significant costs and questionable benefits involved, that there was no duty on the appeals office to publish a database of decisions. However, the chief appeals officer publishes a sample of decisions in her annual report to clarify the process by which appeals are determined.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I accept partially the Minister's first point. Unemployment has fallen in many areas, especially in Dublin where the Minister comes from. In places like Wexford and certain black spots, however, we are still in the dark ages and things are very difficult.

The processing time for appeals and their high success rate highlights that there is definitely something wrong. The Minister has probably seen that FLAC has pointed out that the fact that decisions on social welfare appeals are not routinely published means people appealing decisions are forced to work in an information vacuum and are unclear as to how cases are decided. FLAC also points out that people cannot access free legal aid for advice and assistance in what can be a complicated process. Am I right to say that the average waiting time for an appeal is approximately 20 weeks? Deputies from all over the country are forever putting in questions about this. I believe it is over 1,000 questions a year at a cost of €200 a go, which means that over €200,000 is being spent in that area alone. While the Minister says changing things is expensive, not changing them is also expensive.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I have always been a bit sceptical about that €200 per answer thing, but I take the Deputy's point. I wondered myself when I was appointed to this office why appeals were so successful. If appeals are successful 58% to 60% of the time, it indicates on first pass that something is wrong. However, it seems one of the major reasons there is such a high rate of success in appeals is that we allow new information to be presented on appeal. That is what produces the high success rate. In other countries, for example Britain, one cannot put new information in. That is one change we could make. The concern the chief appeals officer has about publishing all of the decisions is that it would create a great increase in delays on foot of the additional burden that would occur.

In regard to unemployment and the south east, I have good news for the Deputy, which I am sure he will wish to tweet out right away. According to the quarterly household survey figures published today, the number of people employed in the south east has gone up in the last year from 207,000 to 215,000 while the number of people who are unemployed has gone down from 28,500 to 24,900. The south east is increasing jobs, unemployment is falling and great economic progress is being made there. I hope there will be much more.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The Minister will be sorry to hear that most of the young people have left the county and gone to a different country. I do not know if the Minister has seen the film "I, Daniel Blake". Has he seen it?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I have, yes.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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It depicts individuals in England who were trying to access what they were already entitled to. Is this an aspect of the system in Ireland? I do not know myself what the truth is, but is there a deliberate attempt to make it as difficult as possible for some people to access what they are entitled to or is the problem that people are not as well trained in this area as they should be?

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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Of the 60% that succeed on appeal, what percentage refers to reviews? A review is done by the deciding officer. It does not actually go to the appeals officer. In reality, how many appeals are successful which go to an appeals officer? Does the Minister have any plans to put the appeals office on a statutory footing?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I have no plans at this stage to put it on a statutory footing. I am told that 35% of favourable appeal decisions result from revised decisions rather than having gone to an appeals officer. The figure of 58.8% is very misleading for that reason

I have seen "I, Daniel Blake", which is a great movie and I recommend that people go and see it.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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The Minister has plenty of time on his hands.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I am thinking of putting on a screening for my senior officials. I might suggest that the movie comes from a particular perspective and that somebody could do a movie about some of our other customers which would be a very different story. I can guarantee it.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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We are not going into the movies now.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I could do a great movie about some of our customers. Certainly, our policy is to ensure that people get the benefits and assistance to which they are entitled. However, we do that in a context where a lot of people are trying to collect benefits and allowances to which they are not entitled.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I am very anxious to get to the Minister's party colleague and we are eating into his time on the final question. There is an awful lot of discussion about films in this Chamber.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It is relevant. The film is about social welfare. It is worth watching.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Is there no censorship?

Question No. 56 replied to with Written Answers.