Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I move:

“That Dáil Éireann: recognises that:

— post offices serve a vital social and economic role in their communities;

— there is a very specific commitment in the Programme for a Partnership Government to protect the postal network;

— rural and small urban post offices, which are mostly run by independent postmasters, have had their income and footfall greatly reduced;

— many small post offices are now operating on the equivalent of the national minimum wage;

— if this is allowed to continue, Grant Thornton has predicted that 450-500 offices will cease to exist by 2017; and

— if footfall and incomes are not improved then the post office network will be decimated; and

calls on the Government to:

— act on its commitment as outlined in the Programme for a Partnership Government;

— implement an action plan for the post office network within three months;

— implement a new community banking service operated by An Post to be made available in all post offices throughout the country - this post community bank should be based on either the New Zealand Kiwibank model or the German Sparkassen model, both of which have been found to be valid models;

— consider a once-off capital investment fund for the further modernisation of the post office network to enable the widespread provision of banking services in rural and disadvantaged urban areas, most of which have been completely abandoned by the current banking model;

— ensure that the provision of all over-the-counter services relating to Government Departments must be tendered for on the basis of both social and economic grounds, to include rural Ireland in any future growth;

— ensure that all potential business activities previously identified by Grant Thornton, the former Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport and Communications and the Post Office Network Business Development Group must be implemented;

— establish a working group to identify the potential for local post offices to act as hubs to facilitate other services such as health, transport, agriculture, etc., and to act as a one-stop-shop for Government services as committed to in the Programme for a Partnership Government;

— commit funds, while the above measures are being implemented, to ensure no more downward pay reviews to post offices which will make them uneconomical and have the effect of closure by a thousand cuts;

— ensure that a five-year holding plan will be put in place while these changes are being implemented or there will be no network left to salvage; and

recommends that An Post be invited before the Committee of Public Accounts to outline its plan for the future of the post office network.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae will speak on the motion first.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I acknowledge the work of many people in bringing us as far as we are this evening, including staff working in Deputy Mattie McGrath's office, all the Independent Deputies and others. Recent reports on the imminent collapse of the An Post network and the almost immediate closure of 700 outlets demonstrate how this and previous Governments have let down middle and rural Ireland and a critical community service which seems destined for the dustbin. It is now clear to all that in May 2016 Mr. John Moran was a messenger for official Ireland in announcing that the State cannot afford rural Ireland. His statement, which indicated a preference for a "stack them and pack them" policy, was likely not all his own but as a former Secretary General of the Department of Finance, he would have had common purpose with some of the people in the know and must have been privy to some insider information at that time. There is no need for casualties, as Mr. Moran put it, or pulling back services from parts of the country that are perceived as less efficient. I am proposing an efficient and effective model for the post office network.

I will put forward the following points for all to understand and to demand a viable and valid alternative approach to the development of An Post services and the maintenance of all current post offices as a critical part of communities, which they have been. The first point is that 15 years ago New Zealand post office services were in almost the exact same position that Irish post offices find themselves in today. Rather than undo a national network and a serious national asset, Kiwibank was established. It has been a wonderful success, clearing more than $100 million in profit last year.

I acknowledge to the Minister of State and the House, in case anyone says I have a conflict of interest in this, that I am a postmaster of a small rural post office.

The national payment system should be nationalised and handed over to the NTMA or An Post. These payment systems are currently owned by commercial banks and the Irish people have more than paid for them by bailing out some of those banks. The national payments system is the weapon of control over the State and the Irish people, which the commercial banks can use at any time to effectively shut down the ATMs and more.

An Post should be charged with providing a public banking service to every member of the community as required. An Post bank, having the same rights to operate as any commercial bank, should become a primary source of credit to Government in preference to the use of bonds as a mechanism to fund Government. Currently, Government debt is costing approximately €6 billion in interest per annum. A major share, if not all, of the Government debt could be borrowed from An Post bank or other Irish banks, thus causing up to €6 billion to be kept in-house or recycled. No share of that potential saving requires foreign direct investment. An Post bank would create new opportunities for local savings and investments to be reinvested locally and leveraged for the benefit of the entire community. The thrust of the economic development in Ireland must not be dictated solely by reliance on FDI. There needs to be a sea change in attitude and the true development of local and indigenous industries which have the potential to deliver several hundred thousand jobs thus reinvigorating communities with sustainable enterprises and incomes at a family level, not devoted primarily to debt servicing.

Ireland requires new banking competition including competition from public and community banks. An Post bank would provide a service to the community and not be a direct charge on it. An Post bank could provide credit funding for essential infrastructural development such as hospitals, social housing, schools and roads, etc.

An Post has a reputation that is second to none. At a time when many of our banks were discredited, let us down and left an awful lot to be desired, the two institutions that were left standing were our credit unions and our post offices. The An Post network of 1,100 outlets has a top class computerised system, which is a national asset and should not be undone or sold off. There can be absolutely no argument by Government of the shortage of money to deliver a postal bank; one licence, at €10 million, and another €10 million for a set-up is affordable.

The focus of An Post bank would be threefold - to provide basic banking services to most all, to provide funding credit to State and local Government as much as possible and to create new investment opportunity for potential funds.

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Is Deputy Healy-Rae sharing with Deputy Michael Harty?

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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Yes, I have ten minutes to open.

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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An Post bank should be synchronised as much as possible with a network of independent community banks, to be established as soon as possible. It should be strictly prohibited from engaging in speculative lending or anything along those lines.

Along with An Post bank, there are many other supports and innovations that can be implemented. However, it is clear that the demise of the revenue stream from the social welfare contract, which was worth €60 million to the network, can only be realistically sourced through a substantial project such as the An Post bank, which I have just outlined.

I point out at this time the help, encouragement and assistance that has been given by my colleagues in the Rural Independent Group and by one individual in particular, Mr. Tom O’Callaghan, who has been relentless in his efforts over the past four to five years in researching the issues and informing this and previous Governments on the importance of the post office network, the challenges it faces and the opportunities and solutions that remain to sustain the network. I acknowledge his efforts, good work, the way he has kept us informed at all time and the nights he has come not just to County Kerry, but around the country, to support our postmasters.

I also acknowledge at this stage Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil, Labour, Sinn Féin and the other Independents. I give credit where credit is due. I acknowledge it is in the programme for Government and I say thanks very much for that. I thank everybody who worked together, including Tom O'Callaghan. It is vital the Government implements its commitment in the programme for Government in the short term, because otherwise it will be past the point of no return - offices will close and communities will be affected socially and economically. Future generations will not thank the Government for failing to avail of this last chance to keep this lifeblood of the micro-economy pumping. This is a moment of reckoning, a decision that will not just save a State institution that is older than the State itself but a decision that is part of an overall vision of our society, one that is viable, equitable and sustainable. I call on all parties in Government to do what they can and what they have agreed already in the programme for Government, which is to implement a viable plan for the post office network.

I always acknowledge the work that is done by people if they do it in good faith. Everybody knows, because I have been very public about it, that I have been very disappointed over the years with the Irish Postmasters' Union, IPU. Many of the postmasters around the country felt let down by the IPU. They were disappointed that, when I, Deputies in this group and people like Tom O'Callaghan were fighting to keep our post offices open, other people in the IPU were talking about pay-offs for people to close down and for postmasters to retire.

I represent the postmasters, as does my colleague from Kerry and all the other people from throughout the country. The postmasters we represent do not want to close their doors. They want their doors to remain open in order that their children, nephews, nieces and future generations can run their post offices. We want our doors to be open and we want our lights to be on. We will do it whether with the help of the Irish Postmasters Union or otherwise.

I thank Members of all political persuasions for their efforts thus far. I hope that in years ahead people will look back and say that the politicians came together and used their heads and intelligence to arrive at the point where they saved the post office network. That is all we want to do. No one politician is claiming credit for it. Everyone in the House is doing this job. I say as much with the history of the great postmasters over the years in mind. Those people gave great service in bad times. I remind the Minister of State and the Acting Chairman that they did so for poor money. The Minister of State, Deputy Ring, knows that the great postmasters gave great service in our communities for small money.

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Harty is next. The Deputy has six minutes. He will be followed by Deputies Aindrias Moynihan and O'Keeffe, each of whom will have two minutes.

Michael Harty (Clare, Independent)
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Post offices play a vital social and economic role in our communities, especially in the regions and in villages and towns. There are substantial commitments in the programme for Government to protect and develop our post office network. Post offices represent the last commercial service remaining in many villages and small towns. These places have been deserted by the mainstream banks. Post offices are the last commercial or feasible entities in these small villages and towns. They are an essential part of community life and will not survive unless they are supported by Government. Those involved are not looking for a subsidy or subvention. They are seeking a transfer of Government business and the development of financial services. These are changes that the Government and a new banking system can offer.

AIB supplies limited services to post offices and these have been successful. These services demonstrate the potential for a banking system within our post office network.

The post office network should be viewed as a national resource. The loss of the network, which has been built up over many years, would be another unwinding of the fabric of our rural communities. It would accelerate the demise of our unique culture and society. Where would anyone get a network of 1,100 high street businesses? What Government would throw this network away through passive inaction? When the Taoiseach and the Minister for Social Protection talk about supporting the post office network, I get no sense of commitment or urgency from their body language or turn of phrase that would lead me to believe that they believe the service has a future and is worth saving.

One of the lessons of the most recent election was the need to recognise the views of people in the regions. These people took the view that they were forgotten and left out of Government policy. They believed they were unheard and that decisions made by Government were not sensitive to the precarious balance in many communities at present. That lesson should have been learnt following the last election.

Members from all parties come from areas where post offices are under threat. Like us, they understand that supporting the post office network is essential. During the negotiations on Government formation, the Independent Deputies expressed their views clearly about what needed to be done to sustain and support our peripheral regions. Indeed, several of the most vocal Independents are now part of the Government. We expect that what was promised in the programme for Government in respect of the post office network will be honoured. However, we see no willingness or urgency to act to fulfil the solemn commitments in the programme for Government. One of these commitments relates to enhancing post office activity in financial services to provide a new model of community banking along the lines of the models developed in New Zealand through Kiwibank or in Germany through Sparkasse. These models have been shown to work and have many advantages. In particular, the profits made from this banking system or systems are retained within the community. They do not go to the shareholders of the banks. They are retained in the community and are used for the good of that community.

The Government also proposed to make available many Government services through the post office network. The Government proposed that post offices should be a one-stop-shop or hub for Government services, supplying everything from passport applications to motor tax services to social welfare payments to bill payments as well as purchasing other Government services. Finally, the programme for Government promises to deliver a post office network renewal process to develop the infrastructure.

I hope the key objectives of this motion will have the unanimous agreement of the House. We need a clear pathway on how the Government intends to support post offices to give those involved certainty and security. This is also necessary to show that post offices have long-term feasibility. Postmasters who contract their services need to know that the businesses have long-term feasibility. These are the key objectives of the motion and I hope they secure the unanimous agreement of the House.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Rural Independent Group for bringing forward this important motion on this vital topic. Fianna Fáil will be supporting the motion.

The post office network is such an important and strategic State asset. It plays an invaluable role as a centre-point for communities and commercial activity in urban and rural communities. The Government needs to think big and show imagination when it comes to reinventing the national post office network. During the past five years we saw how the members of the previous Government sat on their hands while our invaluable rural post office network declined. The new Administration has shown the same lack of interest in addressing the situation.

Post offices are the heartbeat of many rural towns, villages and communities throughout the county and we need to plan for their future. Many local people have come to me to express concerns about the type of services on offer. Some have raised the fact that agencies working on behalf of An Post cannot process registered mail. This forces many people to go to nearby towns for a full service and to collect registered post. The entire network needs to be reviewed to see how we can increase the number of services on offer. Basing the future of the post office network on what done in the past is a foolish place to start. We need to see our post office network as a vital cog in the development of rural Ireland. This requires new ways of thinking. There are numerous opportunities, including banking options, a one-stop-shop facility as well as opportunities for a range of State services to be offered through the post office network.

Many older people in particular have raised this issue with me. They are seriously concerned about losing important services. They rely on the local post office not only for sending post, but for collecting post, meeting friends and neighbours and discovering what is happening in their communities. The face-to-face service is vital for older people. For some it provides the only weekly opportunity to get out to meet neighbours and friends. Many other community organisations have started to fill in the gap whether through lunches and so on, but collecting the pension on a Friday is a key interaction.

In my area, unfortunately, a number of post offices closed during the tenure of the previous Government, including the post offices in Toames and Carriganima. The post office in Ballingeary was downgraded. This move really stunned people since it is near the highly-populated village of Farran, where the post office has just closed. The Grant Thornton report from 2014 concluded that hundreds of post offices could close, mainly due to the movement towards the direct electronic transfer of social welfare payments. There needs to be a clear vision to expand the post office network. We want to increase the products that are available and expand this important rural service.

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I am delighted to be afforded the opportunity to speak today. I thank my colleagues on the Independent benches for bringing forward this Private Members' motion.

I have no wish to repeat what has already been said. I support the retention of post offices, but, moreover, I call for reinstatement of the post offices that have been closed in rural communities throughout the country. Post offices are an integral part of our society. Many post offices supplement the income of small shopkeepers in our villages and they keep the businesses going.

We come in here day in, day out and talk about the death of rural Ireland and tax incentives to get villages thriving again. If we do not maintain the martyr in the village, that is, the post office, we are in very big trouble.

Last week I was at home, in my parish, and the big issue that came up was insurance for taxis and the fact that it has gone through the roof for local rural taxi drivers. They cannot afford to stay in business. In other words, people are left stranded in their various communities and villages with no transport or access to the bigger towns. We have seen the decimation of many other facilities in our villages and very small towns and the closure of community welfare offices and dispensaries, all of which has an impact on the operation of our rural communities and society. I therefore support the motion wholeheartedly. As I said to the Minister of State, Deputy Ring, last week there was a wake-up call in middle America. I do not mean middle-class America, but middle America, which is the rural part of America. "Think of us as well," was the wake-up call.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the opportunity to address the House on the important issue of the post office network. I acknowledge the important role the post office plays in serving the needs of business and domestic customers alike. In particular, the Government recognises the importance of the local post office in rural Ireland. However, it is important to recognise that the postal sector is undergoing major change both nationally and internationally, with the increased use of electronic communications leading to a decline in core mail volumes year on year. Not only does this have a significant impact on the profitability of An Post, but it also affects the post office network negatively.

It is important to clarify that the post office network is not owned by the State. There are 1,131 post offices nationwide, 51 of which are operated directly by An Post, which is a commercial State body, with the rest being run under contract to An Post by postmasters and postmistresses. Nevertheless, as indicated in a programme for a partnership Government, the Government is, and will remain, committed to working with all stakeholders to find solutions to ensure the sustainability of the post office network into the future. The Government would ideally like to see the maintenance of a national network of customer-focused post offices in the community. To that end, the Post Office Business Development Group, chaired by Mr. Bobby Kerr, was established in 2014 to examine the potential for new and existing Government and commercial business that could be transacted through the post office network and to identify new business opportunities for the network. This process came about following the loss of 198 post offices over the term of office of the previous Government. The final report of the group, which was published in January of this year, made a number of recommendations to support the future sustainability of the post office network, including network renewal.

On foot of this report, the post office network renewal implementation group was established to progress the recommendations arising from the final report of the business development group, the Kerr report. The implementation group is an independent group chaired by Mr. Kerr and includes representatives of An Post and the Irish Postmasters Union. The group has been examining issues such as the number and spatial distribution of post offices, branch modernisation, the streamlining of products and services, postmaster payments and contracts, and training and qualifications for post office employees. Some of the issues under consideration are quite complex in nature. Both I and the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, have met with Mr. Kerr and members of the implementation group on a number of occasions over the past few months. I understand that the implementation group is nearing the conclusion of its work and that recommendations will issue to the board and management of An Post in the next few weeks. It will be a matter for An Post to consider these recommendations and to bring their proposals to the appropriate Government Ministers for discussion.

Given my brief, and being a rural Deputy, I am fully aware of the importance of the local post office to rural communities. I firmly believe that post offices could, and should, play an important role in rural renewal, fostering community engagement and generating economic activity that supports the revitalisation of rural Ireland. To explore this concept further, I established the post office hub working group to identify potential models under which post offices could act as community hubs, especially in rural areas. I have chaired a number of successful meetings of this group over the last number of months, and we have now identified three potential options around the hub concept.

The first option is co-operative post offices which would provide communities with opportunities to run their local offices as community co-operatives. The second option is shared value post offices which would see local post offices act as multi-purpose spaces for communities, an approach that has proven successful in other jurisdictions. Thirdly, mobile post offices operating in some areas of rural Ireland would ensure the continuity of this important service for communities where it may not be economically feasible to operate a full-time office.

My officials are finalising a report from the post office hub working group with a view to potentially establishing a number of pilot projects in 2017. My officials are also working with the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government to examine the potential for motor tax renewal services to be offered through the post office network. Three options for this service have been identified to date and it is expected that, following a short consultation exercise with stakeholders, these options will be brought forward for consideration.

My officials have also been examining the potential-----

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State is eating into two other Deputies' time.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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May I put the rest of my note on the record?

My officials have also been examining the potential for An Post to offer a basic payment account. However, I understand that An Post separately indicated when it addressed the joint Oireachtas committee on 9 November that it intends to launch this service in 2017. I very much welcome the stated intention of An Post to launch this account in the future.

A programme for a partnership Government hopes that An Post, the Irish League of Credit Unions and other interested stakeholders will be asked to investigate and propose a new model of community banking which could be delivered through the post office network. In this regard, the Government programme includes a commitment to investigate, among other options, the German community banking model for the development of local public banks that operate within well-defined regions. The role of my Department will be to work with other Departments and stakeholders to examine the feasibility of this model and identify what part, if any, An Post could play in rolling out such a model in defined regions of Ireland. I understand the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, along with his officials, met recently with the Savings Banks Foundation for International Cooperation about the community banking model. My officials have also been provided with details of the proposal by Irish Rural Link. Following on from these initial contacts, my officials will work closely with the Department of Finance and other stakeholders, as required, over the coming months in progressing the commitment in a programme for a partnership Government.

The Government is therefore taking a range of measures to support the post office network to adapt to the changed business environment in which it operates. I take this opportunity to confirm this Government's commitment, as well as my personal commitment, to the post office network and the process being led by Bobby Kerr. I also put on the record of the House my gratitude to Bobby and the Irish Postmasters Union. He has done tremendous work over the last two years under difficult circumstances. This process, which is very close to completion, needs to be allowed to conclude before any commitments of a financial nature can be considered in any way by the Government. It is also important that individual postmasters are prepared to adapt to the changing business environment in which they operate and that local people and local businesses make the best use of the post office network to conduct their transactions.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I wish to share the 120 seconds left with Deputy Deering.

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I will stick strictly to it.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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There was a programme on RTE a few years ago called "Talk About" on which one had to say as many buzzwords in 60 seconds as one possibly could.

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Deputy want to try it?

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I very much welcome the motion. It is a very progressive effort. Any of us from rural communities will absolutely support and acknowledge the importance of the post office network. Into the future, I see the network not as a post office network but a community services network. I welcome the work of the Minister of State, Deputy Ring, in that regard, particularly on the post office hub working group.

I put forward a number of proposals by thinking outside the box. They included using our post office infrastructure as possible points for tourist and citizens' information or coin and note exchange. There are basic facilities that local authorities are not currently providing, such as toilets along the Wild Atlantic Way, and other public facilities such as defibrillators. If all the agencies responsible for the provision of those types of services were to help subsidise post offices, with a small bit from everyone, it would make them viable and we could protect that infrastructure.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I have 49 seconds so here we go. I reiterate the points already made. As a rural Deputy, I know the important part the post office plays in rural communities. It is not just a financial resource; it also plays a social part, particularly for older people. It is not only those who want to collect their pension on a Friday but for those who want to meet next door neighbours and people they might not see from one end of the week to the next.

It is important to remember also that only a small number of post offices have closed in the past couple of years. We now have a roadmap for the future on where the post office service is going and we need to give the people of Ireland, particularly those in rural Ireland, an opportunity to go to post offices. They need an incentive so they are not just going for financial reasons. Deputy Griffin mentioned other perspectives, including tourism. It is important to point out that we now have a roadmap for the continuation of the post office system in Ireland. We know where we are going and I hope over time the post office system will develop further.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I absolutely welcome tonight's debate and it is vital that this issue be dealt with. The Minister of State, Deputy Ring, knows I have admiration for him but he has changed dramatically from the time he was on this side of the House. When he was here, it was about straight action and getting things done without letting bureaucracy stand in his way. There would be no more reports but it would be about delivery.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is what I am at.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Those opposite are six years in Government and the reality is nothing has happened in those six years. We have plenty of reports and working groups that encourage this, that and the other, but nothing is happening. We are going to get the argument that An Post is a commercial company and if we cannot get it to do this work, why not contract services directly from the State to the post office? I was fascinated to hear Deputy Deering speaking about encouraging agencies to work on this. Sometimes I wonder why we get elected if we hand all the power to other people to decide things, with nobody answering to those of us elected by the people. Deputies know that if they return to their constituencies saying they cannot do this or that because of independent bodies, the quick answer is that the people elected us to do things.

I always understood the theory of semi-State bodies was that they were agents of Government policy and they are not independent in the way some people in The Irish Timeswould like them to be independent. Their job is to implement Government policy and they do not have a choice in the matter. They have a choice in day-to-day matters but not in policy. Listening to the Minister of State's speech, that message does not seem to be getting across to these agencies; they do not realise that the Minister of State needs to get a resolution to the issue.

I read the speech very carefully and the Minister of State must be investigating so many issues because there are so many groups.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I certainly am.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State is six years there.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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No.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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No, I am here a few months.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State is part of a collective that is there for six years. Constitutionally-----

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There were 198 closed under the Deputy's party.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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How many did Fianna Fáil close?

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy, without interruption.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Constitutionally, they are all collectively responsible for this issue-----

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Like the Deputy. He asked a question and I gave an answer.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It is six years and the Deputies, as a collective, have done nothing about it. It is the simple fact.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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That is untrue.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I hope I will not continue to be interrupted from the other side.

What we need to know is not who the Minister of State will speak to and how many more investigations will be set up but if An Post does not deliver what he needs, will he go around An Post and make sure Government policy is implemented? On what date will he have motor tax services delivered through post offices? Will he tender services to be delivered by some agency of the State within 15 km of 95% of the population? He knows only one person or group can do that. Will he arrange for people to go to a local post office and fill in a social welfare form with a personal identification number with a direct connection to the Department? Will the Minister of State make that happen or will he keep talking? In the meantime, we know the vast majority of post offices have seen a decline in their income through review and are on their day deireadh. It is not time for talk or agreeing with everybody on this side and doing nothing. We need action and we need it now.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate. Deputy Ó Cuív's final line was that we need action now but for many years and even decades people have been talking about protecting post offices and keeping them alive. All that time, An Post has been sitting back and letting post offices close when a postmaster retired or died, leaving communities without those facilities.

I listened to the Minister of State's comments about reports and plans, etc. The simple and fundamental fact is that we must accept that as legislators we must empower An Post. The memorandum of understanding regarding how An Post is set up must be changed. As legislators, we must take control of An Post, which is a semi-State body, and it should be put into a contract that there should be a retail outlet within a certain distance of everybody's house. That is a simple fact. Otherwise, whoever is here in ten or 15 years will be speaking about post offices and lamenting their passing. Going back over the years, there was talk about the different services that should have been made available in post offices but it is still the same language that is being spoken, and it will continue until we tackle the fundamental issue.

The management of An Post does not seem to have any plan for maintaining these post offices. They are vital hubs that keep communities alive. There are oceans of scope, capability and capacity within the An Post retail network. It is a trusted brand throughout the country. There is much scope to advance the services for people from all age groups in rural Ireland, who will interact with the local post office network to maintain them. Until we change the memorandum of understanding with An Post, challenge it and legally have a framework meaning it must maintain the network, An Post will not wake up and go after the businesses that will maintain these networks.

John Brassil (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State most sincerely for meeting me and Deputy Martin Ferris this morning. I know the other Kerry Deputies were also available for the meeting but there were other engagements at the time. To cut to the chase, the Minister of State gave a commitment that in the next number of weeks he will publish proposals to save our network. I look forward to those and I have no doubt the Minister is completely committed to the cause, as are all politicians in the House and all postmasters and postmistresses across the country. It is really a matter of knuckling down and providing the network with the armoury to deliver services that will keep them viable.

The Minister of State mentioned that only approximately 30 post offices are in the control of the State. In other words, we are not going to close any post office; they will close themselves because they do not have the ability to provide services.

When I lived in the UK in the late 1980s and early 1990s, entire villages were without any postal service because all the post office networks across the UK had been closed. The people of that country regret that to this day and will regret it forever. We cannot allow this to happen in Ireland.

I will not repeat all the points that have been made about the services that are, or could be, available. The Minister of State is aware of those services., as are all other Members. We know how important the post network is to us.

I will conclude with an important message. The Minister of State and all politicians, like the postmasters and postmistresses across the country, will do everything possible to keep this service alive. The public at large has to use the service.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

John Brassil (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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The general public must use our post offices. It is a question of "use it or lose it". We need to get the message across that post offices have to be used. We want to keep our post offices alive. We want to provide the services. I do not doubt that the proposals that are made can be worked on. We need to ask the people of this country to use the service that is there for them because it is a critical part of rural Ireland.

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I remind Deputy Cahill that two more Deputies are due to speak after him before Fianna Fáil's eight-minute slot concludes.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Lip-service will not save our post office network. I listened intently as the Minister of State spoke about the Kerr implementation group. I was worried to learn that the implementation group has met just once since July. While the commitments in the programme for Government are grand, no progress has been made in this regard in the seven months that have passed since the programme was agreed. If one stands in any rural town or village on a Friday morning, one will see the social interaction that stems from the increased footfall into the local post office, which is the lifeblood of the town or village in question. If we allow this infrastructure to collapse, we will never be able to replace it. It would be like performing open-heart surgery on a rural village or small town. We would be taking the heart out of it.

The post office service must adapt to modern Ireland. Greater services should be provided at post offices. It took a long time to get the Department of Social Protection to bring an end to its policy of encouraging people to use banks rather than the post office network. Thankfully, that policy has stopped in recent months. As Deputy Brassil said, people have to play their part in this as well. We have to put the infrastructure in place, provide the services, adapt to modern living, let the post offices operate as banking institutions and move the model on. We have this great infrastructure in rural Ireland. Much has been said in this House about rural Ireland being attacked and neglected over a period. We have to move quickly to ensure this structure adapts to the needs of modern Ireland and survives.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Rural Independent Group for giving us an opportunity to discuss this matter. I want to pick up on Deputy Aindrias Moynihan's point about the particular role of An Post in the network. Any organisation, with a bit of imagination and commercial cop-on, would make the most of having 1,131 distribution points throughout the country. It seems that An Post is determined, at every level, to undermine and weaken that distribution operation. It did nothing to stop the Department of Social Protection from encouraging people to take their business away from the network. That policy was not reversed until action was taken by this House and the Irish Postmasters Union. An Post is continuing to pursue a model of putting products that are available in post offices into multiple supermarkets, thereby undermining the very quality of its distribution network. It is refusing to engage properly with postmasters and postmistresses about appropriate terms and conditions of employment for the job they do on behalf of the company. An Post needs to recognise that if it did not have these independent contractors, it would be missing a serious asset.

We all have ideas about what can be done. One of the frustrations is that these ideas have been around for some time. The Kerr report was produced in 2014. Everything is put on the long finger. In fairness to the Minister of State, he has laid out some suggestions this afternoon but there needs to be a timeline for action to be taken. This House needs to know when the various services will be rolled out. An assurance needs to be given that those who work in the post office network will be properly compensated. I welcome the steps that are being taken with regard to car tax but we should we doing something in respect of the driving licence system as well. Even though we are supposedly in an information technology age, one must be physically present at a driving licence centre if one wishes to get a driving licence. However, there is just one such centre in most counties. Given that we trust post offices to issue passports, I suggest that a driving licence service could be provided at post offices. Similarly, the queries that are made at all public offices, including those of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, could be resolved through the putting in place of information points at local post offices. This would encourage people to come in. We want people to use the service. We need to give them a reason to do so. There are many ideas doing the rounds but we need action now. Deputy Griffin suggested that defibrillators could be put into post offices. I suggest that the post office network - and its team of postmasters and postmistresses - needs a defibrillator at this stage. Unless it gets it, post office services will not continue and the potential to provide Government services at the 1,131 distribution points throughout the country will not be fulfilled.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the opportunity to speak briefly on this motion. I would like to declare my own interest as a third-generation postmaster. I continue to run Ballynacargy post office in County Westmeath. I am an unashamedly strong supporter of the post office network. I know at first hand that the people who work in our post offices play a pivotal role in local communities. Every Member of this House knows that too. During this debate and the previous debates we have had on this issue, not one Deputy has had anything negative to say about the post office network and the role it plays in the communities it serves. The number of people in this House who have the direct influence to support that network is quite limited. I refer to the Deputies who are sitting across from me. The same people would have been able to influence the support of the network for the past five years but, unfortunately, they did not do so.

I compliment the Irish Postmasters Union on the work it has undertaken in bringing this issue to the fore in recent years. The representatives of Irish postmasters know they cannot stand still. They have made numerous suggestions to the Minister of State and his predecessors about how the services provided at post offices can be changed to put the post office network on a sustainable footing as we go forward. Unfortunately, those suggestions have not been taken on board. When the issuing of driving licences was being put out to tender, that tender was framed in a manner that prohibited post offices from putting in for it. The Department of Social Protection's conscious effort to make people change from receiving their payments in post offices to receiving them in their bank accounts was highlighted here on numerous occasions before the Department changed its forms.

A number of Deputies alluded to the Bobby Kerr report, which was published earlier this year. There is little point in asking someone to draw up a report if one is going to sit on one's hands and do nothing about the report when one gets it. We need to see a plan for the implementation of the recommendations in the Kerr report. This is a time-sensitive issue. We do not have any spare time on our hands. I would like to repeat a question that was asked before. Who is going to stand up and say "Stop"? If we do not stop the decimation of our rural services, there will be nothing left in our villages and communities. The previous Government closed rural schools and Garda stations. It took community welfare officers out of rural Ireland.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy's party did that.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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We have an opportunity to put the services back in our local post offices. I ask the Government not to turn its back on rural Ireland. It should support Irish post offices because it will regret it if it fails to do so.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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They closed 198, just to remind the Deputy.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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They did not open them.

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I remind Members there are many contributors. I ask them to stick to their times and refrain from interruptions. I call Deputy Fitzmaurice.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Given the former Minister with responsibility for rural affairs is in the House, he might inform us how many offices closed while he was in office. My understanding is that almost 20 were closed in Kerry.

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Fitzmaurice, without interruption.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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With respect, I had 60 seconds and he had six minutes.

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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With respect to the Chair, I call Deputy Fitzmaurice.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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For the record, the former Minister needs to acknowledge that. He had a shameful record in his time.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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My time is being wasted.

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I will allow Deputy Fitzmaurice two minutes.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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This is not something to be partisan about but if he is throwing stones like that, he needs to be reminded of his shameful record.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on this issue. I congratulate the Rural Independent Group on bringing forward this motion. As those from rural areas in particular will know, and given we were discussing mental health in the House only yesterday, many people go to a post office on a Friday who may not have spoken to someone all week. The post office is an avenue to having someone to talk to, to have a chat with and to catch up on what is going on around the area. It is very important in that way.

I reiterate the point made by many previous speakers that people need to use it. I have heard people talking and talking about the post office but they then put their accounts through the bank. That is no good to the post office network.

I welcome some of what the Minister of State has said today. We have the ball in our hand because he who pays the piper calls the tune. We are giving a big social welfare contract to An Post and we should be able to call the tune for the people throughout rural Ireland. It should not be An Post dictating what will close and what will not close. New initiatives need to be found, as everyone agrees, including in regard to driving licences and the different aspects Members have spoken about. Throughout the country, more and more deliveries are made by courier but a postmaster is not allowed to take in those deliveries. An Post needs to cop on, given some of the stuff it is at, and give post offices more freedom to work the services.

I agree wholeheartedly with the suggestions on public banking. The credit unions and the post offices need to join up. Every Department needs to have joined-up thinking on this. At the moment, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine is telling people in rural Ireland who do not have broadband or a computer, many of whom do not even know how to drive the computer, if they had one, that they have to go online next year for their single farm payment or their areas of natural constraint payment. That is not the way to protect post offices or the way to ensure more postage goes through the post office to protect it.

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should conclude.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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There is one thing I do not agree with. I do not want to see a little van or lorry, or whatever the idea is of this mobile implement going around from place to place like Noddy, and telling Mrs. Brown to be at a place at 3 o'clock and the rest of them be at some other town at 4 o'clock.

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I have been lenient with the Deputy.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Let us give it to a local shop or to a local community, as was said. We must make sure that wherever there is a post office at the moment, it will stay there to bind the community and so the community can work with it. I do not know what that lorry, or whatever it is, going around the country from place to place will cost. That money would be better in the pockets of local people than being spent burning diesel for this lorry.

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I have already said that time is scarce. I do not want to be interrupting Members. Everybody wants to have their say.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I did not spend two extra minutes talking.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the opportunity to speak on this motion from the Rural Independent Group. The post office network should not just be protected but should be enhanced and expanded because it provides a vital service, like that provided by Garda stations, rural schools and shops. We have seen the decimation of rural villages, which I recognise as a Deputy representing rural constituency.

People in rural Ireland have heard their public representatives say they support the postal service but they also supported liberalisation through the EU directives that have threatened the post office network and the postal network. The problem has been exacerbated because, as we have seen in the past, Departments have moved services away from the post offices and encouraged people towards the banks instead of using the post office service.

We support the motion and think it is very important. There is broad agreement on this issue. The Government does not have a majority and obviously needs the support of Members in the House. Despite the negative comments by a former Minister who presided over the closure of 198 post offices, while we criticise the Government for many things, we recognise that at least a stab is being made at addressing this problem. Sinn Féin will hold the Government to account but we want to be constructive. The Government has brought forward proposals and we will look at them and give feedback on them. It is to be hoped that, working together, we can protect and enhance the services. Nothing was done in the past but a start is now being made. The ball must be grabbed and we must run with it.

There has been a lack of progress on the Bobby Kerr report. I read the timelines in the report, some of which are for six months and 12 months. The Minister of State mentioned some progress, which is welcome, but we need to move on. Last week, John Daly, the director of retail operations at An Post, warned the rural affairs committee that 700 post offices are not sustainable. The Minister of State is a rural Deputy like myself and he understands the importance of that. The Government needs to act quickly, as we all do, or there will be branch closures, which will result in communities losing services. In my own constituency, we have lost post offices at Ballacolla, Timahoe and Arless, and the remaining post offices, such as at Ballybrittas, Ballinakill and other small villages such as Kildangan in south Kildare, need to be protected.

Rural communities have lost many services and we cannot allow more services to go. The post office is a vital, core service. If we take a service out of the community, be it a small Garda station, a small school or a shop, if we take a part of the cluster, it is like taking a leg from under a stool in that it all topples over. We must try to cluster services and maintain those clusters.

There is a strong case to be made for the viability of the post office network, which has more than 1,100 branches. It is very important we enhance that. I understand post offices have to be made viable and, to do that, we have to increase the volume of business. The reinvigoration of the post office network can be achieved by extending services. I taxed my car in a post office in Scotland many years ago but we have never got around to doing that here. There are local government services that can be provided through local post offices. The Grant Thornton report and the Bobby Kerr report outline a range of options and there are also ideas from Members of this House.

The banks have stepped back from rural Ireland and have closed branches left, right and centre. They have also brought in the concept of staffless banking, which is driving some people up the wall. There is a vacuum but, given the banking sector has pulled back from providing face-to-face contact and from providing branches in towns and villages, this provides a big opportunity. We must push the whole operation of post offices towards this area. There is an opportunity which we must grasp. We must use computerisation and the roll-out of broadband to help improve services. We must improve viability and sustainability because post offices must be viable and sustainable into the future. We have a problem with the mobile services but some of the other ideas the Minister of State is putting forward are workable.

Martin Ferris (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Minister of State, Deputy Ring, for meeting Deputy John Brassil and me this morning. I found it very informative and helpful, and I sincerely appreciate it.

Listening to some of the commentary over the past half an hour, particularly that coming from Fianna Fáil, I can fully understand how the people have such a terrible view of the political establishment. I have never heard hypocrisy like I have heard here today. It is disgraceful. Fianna Fáil closed 198 post offices and it closed Garda stations and now its members attack the Minister of State for not moving fast enough.

The small shopkeepers, the creameries and the Garda stations are gone. Rural Ireland has been decimated by the hypocrisy of Fianna Fáil and the political establishment. I hope and believe that the Minister of State understands the value of rural post offices and the social consequences resulting from the terrible decisions of the past. If the post office disappears from a community, the small shop and the pub in the area will disappear as well. The first point of contact that isolated elderly people have on a weekly basis with their local post office will be gone.

I have considered the three proposals the Minister of State brought forward today. I share concerns regarding the mobile because I think it is an excuse but I am a great believer in co-operatives and share value. There is a lot of merit to those proposals. Deputy Stanley said that 700 post offices of 1,131 are not sustainable. How does the Minister of State define sustainability? I define it by value and service to the community not the monetary value. Sinn Féin is approaching this in a very honest way to try to resolve a terrible problem for rural Ireland and we will not be found wanting in that.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the motion and commend the Deputies for bringing it before the House. I am glad that there will be all party support for this motion. That sends a very clear signal.

In the past two weeks I have been facilitating public meetings in my parish, Gweedore, where the post office network in Dunlewey, a strong Gaeltacht area and a very rural one, is out for public consultation because the postmistress, who has given lengthy service to the community, is retiring at the end of the year. Tonight’s debate will send a very clear signal to An Post which is, that a decision should be made before the end of next week to the effect that we want a five-year holding plan to ensure that the network will remain both in place and viable and that we will have adequate time to discuss the various options. At the meeting I facilitated between the community and An Post on Monday, the passion of the residents for their community and its services was very clear from their recounted experience and testimony. This is a small rural community and the post office is crucial for the people who access its services and obtain their pensions there. I witnessed the closure of the post offices in Gweedore, Magheroarty and many other places, all on Fianna Fáil's watch. The threatened closure of Bunbeg's post office was averted and I was glad that we were able to do that. We facilitated community engagement in respect of that and in other areas. I hope we have stemmed the tide of post office closures.

Before this debate I reread a report I compiled on behalf of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Arts, Sport, Tourism, Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs in 2008 when I was a Senator. One of the sections in it related to the future of the post office network. I recognised that unless we moved forward we would not have a network in the future. The report was debated in the Seanad. Deputy Ó Cuív was the Minister responsible. We drew from international experience, in California, Essex and Leeds, of integration with council and financial services and making post offices part of an enterprise hub. That was what was required. Unfortunately, the Government response was to close down almost 200 post offices. The same type of solution is being put forward in the Kerr report. I hope there will be positive solutions to maintain this network. An Post has to hear very clearly as we decide on this matter that no post offices should be closed until adequate time is given to see the solutions the Oireachtas provides.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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We support this motion. There are aspects of it worthy of further interrogation, particularly the publication by Grant Thornton of its report predicting that 450 to 500 post offices will cease to exist by 2017. I question that figure because the evidence during the past five years would not bear it out. It would take a major diminution in services for that figure to be borne out in real terms. Notwithstanding that, there is a problem. Are people in rural areas going into their local post offices to use their services or do they drive past them and go to the nearest town, urban conurbation or city?

When I was a county councillor, I advocated strongly for young couples who wanted to build houses in rural areas. Between 2004 and 2007, I spent a great deal of time helping young people to obtain planning permission in rural areas where there are post offices. It is arguable, however, that most of those people do not use their local post offices but drive to the nearest town to avail of all the services available there. How do we disrupt that behaviour and incentivise people to develop a loyalty to their own local offices? That will be challenging. It will require behavioural change.

An Post made a submission recently to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs setting out metrics. It has introduced the court fines payment system. It will extend the National Lottery service to all post offices nationwide. The State savings business is growing and is worth over €20 billion. It is talking about plans to enhance those services but will that translate into more people going into post offices to transact that business or will people prefer to do it online? Since March 2014, An Post has experienced a decline of over 11% in core mail usage. Since the peak of mail reached in 2007, it has experienced a 38% decline. There is behavioural change from posting letters to online transactions, particularly for Government services.

I do not see the State directly subsidising individual post offices but a co-operative model for communities where the local post office is under threat has been mentioned. We had and still have a strong co-operative ethos in this State and I do not see why, with soft or hard supports, communities where there are offices at risk of closure, not being passed on to the next generation or with no uptake if somebody decides to retire, could not develop a social enterprise model . I do not know how many motions about rural post offices I have witnessed in the past ten years. If we can be progressive and expansive in our thinking and work with communities, we can see whether, short of direct subsidisation, we can build out a co-operative model. It is only one suggestion but it could be done on a trial basis in one or two communities.

If they feel strongly enough about their local post offices, and the surveys tell us that they do, then let us put that to the test and see if there are others ways of dealing with this issue. It it worth reading into the record again that which was stated by An Post. In March 2014, An Post said that it had more than 750,000 weekly Department of Social Protection customers. I know this has been mentioned already. This has now fallen to 625,000 customers, a decline of 17%. An Post has said that it was caused primarily by a decline of 30% in the number of jobseeker payments as people gained employment or moved onto schemes. An Post then experienced a reduction of 5% in pension payments due to the very low number of new pensioners choosing the post office option for their payments. I know that there were some tensions around that but we have to be honest: if people decide that they want their payments paid in a particular way, that is the choice of citizens.

While we in the Labour Party support the motion, I do not take the dystopian view that post offices will be wiped out. We have seen a growth in the number of one-off rural houses and we have seen investment in schools in rural areas. What we need to do now is see how we can help communities, particularly those in sensitive areas, such as the ones that Deputy Pearse Doherty spoke about in his own native Gweedore. If we take that as an example, and there have been public meetings around this, perhaps it is one area that we could look at as a model in which stakeholders can come together to sustain the post office and roll in other services, not just post office-related services but other social services, to create the kind of hub that is so vital to the rural communities to which we refer in the context of the motion.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I welcome and support the aims of this motion to save and fully appreciate the rural post office and the vital role it plays in rural life. In recent months, I have raised this and associated issues in the House and have always received the same response from the Minister. I quote the Minister, Deputy Naughten:

It is Government policy that An Post remains a strong, viable company in a position to provide a high quality postal service and maintain a national network of customer focused post offices in the community.

I support him on that one. The Government supports this policy, so I guess it is supported by Fianna Fáil. Yet the irony is, despite the commitment given in the programme for Government, that this issue still remains, the threats remain and the uncertainty remains and grows stronger even as we hear Ministers trot out the same rhetoric time after time. A couple of weeks ago, the Minister reiterated the Government's commitment to rural post offices. Since then, on 3 November a local newspaper in Cork, The Corkman, quoted a fourth-generation postmaster, Mr. Henry Keogh, who says that he will be the last such postmaster in Rockchapel because the post office is no longer viable. If closed, as he points out, it will follow the post offices in Cullen, Rathcoole, Meelin, Milford, etc. The same paper recorded the closure of Kiskeam post office and the threats facing Duhallow.

This is repeated throughout the country. I am sure it is reassuring to postmasters who have worked for little more than the minimum wage to keep these office open. I am sure that it helps them as they see the offices close as I am sure it helps the elderly and isolated in rural communities to hear that it is actually official Government policy to keep them open, though they are closing day in and day out. If it is official Government policy, why did we hear Mr. Jim Daly, the director of retail operations in An Post, warn that many of the country’s remaining 1,100 post offices are unsustainable and, in effect, on the verge of collapse. I argue that it is not simply because people are posting less letters, because we are in a new digital age, because it is a sign of the times or because it is inevitable; it is because the sector of rural post offices has not been invested in or protected and its vital and social role is not appreciated or valued.

The problem has been compounded by decisions such as that taken by the Department of Social Protection to remove of cheque payment schemes from the post office network, the insistence by Government Departments that payments to them be made by bank draft rather than by means of methods offered by post offices and by the lethargy and slowness in producing an actual plan that would see real investment in rural post offices. There is a constant threat that the tendering of Government business such that relating to welfare payments could be lost at some stage by An Post, not to mention the issue that is often the trigger for actual closures, which is the reorganisation in the network and the sorting and delivery services being centralised outside of the offices themselves. There is no real effort or vision in the context of setting up an alternative banking system similar to the Kiwibank model in New Zealand or Sparkasse in Germany, which are examples of what is possible.

We still await any real steps to introduce proposals such as the use of post offices as local community hubs, with an extended range of services for the people living in those communities. The wider issue here, however, is embedded in the Government's economy policy, which is a neo-liberal model. It is a model that says that there is no alternative to it and that sees everything as being bought, sold or delivering a profit.

In supporting this motion, I believe we should remember how quickly this State sprang into action to bail out banks and bondholders and compare it to the foot-dragging of the current Minister and the Government on this vital issue.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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The post office network has sharply declined in this country under both Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael-led Governments. How many post offices have closed since 1984? Approximately 1,000. The Irish Postmasters' Union clearly fears that many more may face closure next year. To allow this to happen would be an act of social vandalism. Apart from anything else, there are 3,700 people employed in the country's 1,150 remaining post offices. The Government seems to imply that there is a degree of inevitability about this. It seems to indicate that the rise of e-mail and the decline of the letter means that post offices are more or less in inevitable decline. It would flow from this analysis that those who seek to defend the post office system are, in some respects, dinosaurs. Nothing could be further from the truth. I want to bring into the debate a number of important issues that are left out of that way of looking at it.

With the rise of the Internet, the decline in traditional post is severe without being catastrophic. Traditional post has declined by 38% in this State since 2007. However, alongside this, parcel deliveries from online orders have increased significantly. Up to €6.6 million per day is spent online by Irish households on clothing and household goods alone, yet An Post's SDS delivery service was shut down at precisely the time it should have been beefed up. An attempt was made to force 625,000 social welfare recipients to have their payments sent electronically to bank accounts. Thankfully, the Government, under pressure, has since retreated in respect of this matter. This has not been the first time that Government action has served to undermine the post office. When, at the start of the crash, billions of euro in savings were transferred from banks to post office saving certificates, the rate of return was lowered, at least in part, it would seem, to shore up the commercial banking sector.

The suggestion that a State-run post office bank be established is a positive one that we support. It works well in New Zealand, where Kiwibank seems to be quite a success story. I have seen a number of reports which indicate that, at various times, customer satisfaction ratings for the state-owned post office Kiwibank have been significantly higher than the four Australian-owned trading commercial banks in that New Zealand. Post offices should, of course, also be a hub where a whole range of other State services can be accessed. This would require significant investment but it would be an important investment in light of the social importance of post offices. It would clearly would be an investment of a very worthwhile character. We will be supporting the motion.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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I acknowledge the passion of the Deputies in the Independent Rural Group in respect of this particular issue. Gabhaim comhghairdeas leo toisc go bhfuil an díospóireacht againn anocht.

I totally accept the value of post offices for rural Ireland and the value of one aspect in particular. I think of elderly people in rural Ireland, who are not IT-savvy and who are not doing their business or paying their bills online because they do not have those skills.

Then there are those who do have the skills but they do not have broadband access. In the absence of that, post offices provide a very valuable service.

We discussed this topic last year and there was widespread agreement on the value of the postal network. There is a commitment in the programme for a partnership Government to protecting the postal network. It is time to put the fine words into action as the postal network is evidently under threat.

I acknowledge the value of the postal network to rural areas but it also provides a value in urban areas. I know very well the work and services provided by post offices throughout Dublin Central. There is a trust in post offices which we do not see in banks. When one goes into a post office there is a point of human contact. There is a person at the desk who can answer one’s questions, respond to queries and who has the time and patience to deal with people. They know the customers, their families and circumstances. When one goes into a bank, increasingly, the service is from a machine. If one uses telephone banking one has to dial 1 for this, dial 2 for that and suddenly one is at dial 6 or 7 and the process is extremely frustrating unlike in the post office where there is a person to help which is much better.

I like the idea of community banking but I wonder whether there is a role for credit unions. Most communities that have a post office also have a credit union and perhaps they could complement each other. Post offices have massive potential to complement the work they are already doing and we should examine the possibilities in that regard. The post office system is working well, despite the closures, and I question why we are undermining a system that is going well. If we want post offices to continue there is an onus on the public to use them as much as we can.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this motion. As has been outlined by other Members, there is no doubt the post office network is vital to rural communities and to helping communities to survive.

In the past week in Donegal a consultation concluded on the future of the Dunlewey post office in west Donegal. One wonders why An Post is even having a consultation on the matter given that the nearest post office is approximately eight miles from Dunlewey. It should be a no-brainer that the post office would be maintained in the community and An Post is obliged to ensure that the post office there will be maintained now and in the future.

The post office network business development group has been meeting for approximately two years and it is about time for it to begin to deliver on some of the proposals that have emerged. Government commitment is required to make that happen. While some of the proposals the Minister outlined earlier are interesting, we constantly see the Department of Social Protection trying to move people away from the post office network. It is just not acceptable that various Departments behave in a different manner towards the network. Deputy Sherlock outlined that people can choose whether they want their social welfare payment to be paid into their bank account or to collect it in the post office. They can make the choice but the way it is pitched by the Department of Social Protection means they do not appear to have an option, which is not right. That results in the figures being skewed. For the foreseeable future the social welfare contract will be the lifeblood of the post office network right across the country and it must be maintained in order to allow the other proposals to develop, if they are introduced.

The public banking proposal is interesting but I wonder how the Central Bank will view that and how it will be regulated. I could see the proposal being bogged down in regulation for the next five to ten years while we wait for the Central Bank to make a decision. The Department could make a decision to have community banking but I would like to hear more details about its regulation. All the ducks need to be lined up in a row in order that such a proposal can be put into practice as quickly as possible.

The option outlined by the Minister concerning a mobile post office does not make sense and I do not think it could be introduced because An Post would baulk at that option and would not want to carry the cost of operating such a system. We must find another option to maintain the post office network. In addition, there must be an option for postmasters to choose to move out of the service and to be compensated if they choose to do so, especially in the event of a co-operative post office taking over.

Tommy Broughan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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I am delighted to have an opportunity to speak on this very important motion, albeit briefly. I congratulate the Rural Alliance on introducing the motion, given the colossal importance of protecting the post office network, not just for rural areas but also for urban communities. This is an issue that fully unites urban and rural Ireland.

The depletion of the post office network is an issue in urban districts also. Approximately ten years ago the north Coolock parishes of Priorswood and Clonshaugh in Dublin Bay North were devastated to learn that their post office was closing and moving to the Tesco-owned Clare Hall shopping centre. For many senior citizens and others with poor mobility the closure of the post office in Clonshaugh shopping centre was a major blow and inconvenience to their daily lives. Similarly, about two years ago people in Howth were taken aback by the closure of the then stand-alone post office. It moved not too far away into the local Centra supermarket but we like to have specialist post office services and that is now gone. I have been informed in recent days by Councillor Keith Redmond and others that Sutton post office is threatened with closure. That seems to go back to the refusal of the new management team in An Post to financially support post offices in districts such as Sutton. I call on the new chief executive, David McRedmond, whom a number of us know well from his previous roles in other parts of Irish public life, to ensure the outrageous threatened closure of Sutton post office does not go ahead.

The Minister made commitments to support the post office network in the programme for a partnership Government and it was agreed that the recommendations of the Post Office Network Business Development Group, which reported in January 2016, would be implemented. I am especially interested in the recommendations put forward by the group, including basic payment accounts, the motor tax recommendation, the credit union recommendation, the social value recommendation, the procurement recommendation and the white labelling recommendation. All of those options could offer important avenues for the post office network to be maintained.

I also warmly welcome the investigation into developing a German Sparkassenmodel of local banking, in alliance with the post office network and I urge that it would be pursued. I thank my colleague, Deputy Joan Collins, who arranged for us to meet advocates for Sparkassen. I warmly congratulate our Rural Independent Group colleagues and urge the Minister to take on board what they are advocating today.

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I now call on Deputy Róisín Shortall who is sharing time with Deputies Eamon Ryan, Seamus Healy and Stephen Donnelly. The four speakers have seven and a half minutes between them. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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I commend the Rural Independent Group on bringing this motion before the House. I very much welcome it and acknowledge the pivotal and vital role post offices play not just in rural areas but in urban areas also.

It is important that we not only maintain the presence of post offices but ensure that they are supported in setting out a new role for themselves. It is true to say that those working in An Post, and certainly management in An Post as well, are quite keen to forge that new role for post offices.

A number of years ago we had very grand plans in terms of setting up Postbank and for various reasons An Post did not get the required support to do that. That is regrettable. That is particularly regrettable given the recent history of the Irish banking system, which has not covered itself in glory, and played its own part in the significant difficulties this country has faced in recent years. Bearing in mind the kind of bailout the Irish people provided to the banks, they are not seeking to repay that in any way. In fact, it is quite the opposite. We see more and more banks closing down and losing interest in domestic business and only being concerned about business customers. That has had a huge knock-on effect in local communities.

For that reason there is huge potential for post offices and credit unions to provide community banking in local communities but especially in rural areas. We know that when people get money from whatever financial institution, they are highly likely to spend the money there and then in those premises or in other local premises. That is the kind of local business we want to generate in rural areas for domestic customers but also for small and medium enterprises. Our aim should be for self-employed people to have access to financial services locally in their own village or town. There is considerable potential in going forward with such projects.

The Government would be remiss not to avail of that opportunity and to use it as a way of reinvigorating the many towns and villages in rural Ireland which badly need it.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I support this motion. In the short time available I will concentrate first on the Sparkassenbanking model. Irish Rural Link held a seminar today in the RDS at which the president of the World Savings Bank spoke about some of the benefits, and they are real. It is a public savings bank model where, critically, the deposits raised in a region are lent in that region. It has a specific benefit in terms of lifting areas that are disadvantaged regionally. Second, in terms of the capability of such a banking system to specialise in small business lending, it is not lending by cash models but on the basis of knowledge of the business. It is also a model that has explicit training in that sort of professional lending system. This is a stable, professional banking model and it is perfectly suited for the development of rural Ireland. It also has a centralised service system that could be used to assist credit unions and post offices as that banking model is rolled out. I commend the inclusion of that issue in the motion. I commend the Government also in terms of carrying out the analysis it said it would do in the programme for Government such as the Sparkassenpublic banking model.

When it comes to An Post, we have to look at the entire postal system. It is not just the post offices that will be in difficulty. It is almost inevitable that within the next four or five years we will lose another 50% or so of the current mail business. We cannot ignore that. We have to plan for it and plan alternative businesses into which the postal network, in its entirety, can go. We have to give it a role in retail online mobile banking, transport and other services. That is why I agree with this motion which we as a party very much support.

Séamus Healy (Tipperary, Workers and Unemployed Action Group)
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I welcome the opportunity to speak on this motion, which I support, and commend the rural Independents for bringing it forward. I sponsored a very similar motion during the term of the previous Dáil but unfortunately, despite no less than two Grant Thornton reports, an Oireachtas committee report and a report from the Post Office Network Business Development Group, little or no progress has been made in securing the future of the post office network.

A viable, progressive and sustainable post office network is a cornerstone for social and economic development in our communities. If an action plan for the post office network is not implemented immediately, Grant Thornton has stated that approximately 500 post offices will close. That would be horrendous and it cannot be allowed.

All the reports I have mentioned pointed out the essential elements needed to maintain and expand the services and the network. These include: prioritising and increasing the use of the post office network for social welfare payments; providing a community banking service in all post offices to ensure that post offices act as a one-stop-shop for all Government services; providing a once-off capital injection to modernise the post office network; and ensuring that any and all tendering for services must be done not just on the basis of economic criteria but also on social criteria.

We have had enough reports and recommendations. What we need now is for the Government to put its money where its mouth is and take immediate steps to save the post office network. Furthermore, the Minister should forget the mad notion of the mobile post offices.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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My colleagues, the rural Independent Deputies, deserve great credit for using their Private Members' time to bring forward this motion, which seeks to secure the future for rural post offices. I commend them on a thoughtful, well-considered motion. My understanding is that the Government will not oppose the motion which, if I am right, is to be welcomed.

We are all acutely aware of the challenges faced by rural post offices. In Arklow, south Wicklow, recently, the post office on the main street nearly closed. That would have caused a huge problem for many people in the town but, thankfully, it did not come to pass.

We have had the Post Office Network Business Development Group report for ten months and while it is within the programme for Government that progress must be made, we have seen little so far. We know that almost half of all post offices face closure. We know there is an extensive network in place which is key to rural communities, villages and towns. We know the post office network employs over 4,000 people. A combination of the post office network and the credit union network can provide a viable, sustainable, very important network, access to credit within rural communities and, critically, keep the post office network not just alive but growing to ensure it remains a key part that is central to rural communities.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The rural Independents have ten minutes, starting with Deputy Michael Lowry. I understand the Deputy is sharing with Deputy Michael Collins.

Michael Lowry (Tipperary, Independent)
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That is correct. As a signatory I welcome the opportunity to speak to this motion, which calls on the Government to honour its commitment to the reorganisation and development of the postal network and to maximise the future economic and social potential of the network.

The post network is in disarray. It is not economically viable and it urgently requires a strategic survival plan. We have had exhaustive assessment, analysis, reports and recommendations. Every report written has concluded with a common thread: the post office network as it presently functions is not sustainable in the long term.

Post offices face massive problems and huge challenges. There has to be a defined programme of action to arrest the decline. From Government we need leadership, vision and initiatives to rescue post offices from obliteration. We need an effective co-ordinated plan to breath life back into the network.

Post offices are an essential key part of the fabric of a rural village. They are a focal point, a centre of activity and interest to locals, and a community hub. They have a beneficial binding influence on local communities.

The problems with post offices are a symptom of what is happening in rural Ireland, namely, rural decline. The root cause of the crisis in rural Ireland is the lack of job opportunities for young people. Thousands of our young people have had to emigrate. They were forced to leave their homes, families, friends and communities. Parents are denied the privilege of being close to their loved ones and the gift of seeing them mature to adulthood. Many issues arise as a consequence of this emigration. Fewer houses are being built. There is no work for builders and tradesmen. Fewer children are being born. Schools are losing numbers, putting teachers' jobs at risk, with small rural schools facing closure. Small shops and Garda stations have been closed.

The Government and the national agencies have done absolutely nothing to correct the imbalance between city and rural regeneration. We now have a two-speed economy - one for Dublin and one for the rest of the country - operating in a fast and a slow lane.

The closure of Garda stations has left older people in particular feeling vulnerable at a time when city crime gangs are roaming the country causing fear and anxiety. That feeling of isolation is made worse by the fact that we do not have any local transport, which makes it impossible for people to socialise.

Post offices have suffered badly because of this rural depopulation, neglect and decline. Hundreds of post offices have already closed. Those that are left are wobbling. We need a renewal programme for post offices and a totally different business model. We need an imaginative creative blueprint which includes the expansion and development of new business and additional services. There are opportunities to further develop post offices as front offices of national Government, local government and essential citizen services.

An Post should be enabled and financially supported to provide a new community banking service. Most rural and disadvantaged urban areas have been abandoned by our so-called pillar banks. This Government, in partnership with the post office sector, must save what is left of the network by implementing immediate and decisive policy initiatives that are capable of reinventing and reinvigorating the network and underpinning the financial security of post offices.

Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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For the past 300 years the post office network has been an integral element of Irish society. It has been at the forefront of economic and social activity in towns and villages across the country. With over 1,150 post offices nationwide, An Post is a huge resource which needs to be further utilised.

The post office network provides a large range of services. As well as the standard postal services and welfare payments, post offices now provide Passport Express, National Treasury Management Agency, NTMA, savings, Garda fixed fines, dog licences, television licence renewal, toll tag top-up, bin collection payment, tax payments, including local property tax, LPT, mobile top-up and some banking services.

The post office is the centre of social interaction for many older members of our society, as they look forward to the Friday visit to collect their old age pension, where they meet many of their own generation. It is a safe environment in which they can collect their money. In rural areas in particular, a grocery shop is attached to the post office. Many elderly do their entire week's shopping in the local shop. It is convenient for them not to have to travel, and the shopkeeper knows their individual needs and stocks the shop accordingly. Closure of a rural post office will almost certainly mean closure of the local shop as well, and this will have significant implications for the survival of that community.

The social and community value of the post office cannot be underestimated. The post office network is long established in our country and is valued and trusted as being able to deliver an excellent service to all its customers over the past 300 years. However, evolving technological and behavioural changes are placing the future of the post office network under increasing pressure. The move to Internet-based transactions is ongoing and inevitable, and nobody would deny that there is a need for the network to continue to improve and modernise.

The preparation of a modernisation plan for all post offices needs to take place. Rural post offices, in particular, need to embed themselves further into the social and economic fabric of their communities and, just like any other business, become increasingly relevant to their customers. The post offices' approach of front-of-counter staff is accessible and engaging for customers, and in an age where banks and other institutions are rapidly decreasing the number of front-of-counter staff, post offices should use this to their advantage.

The Government needs to look at adapting the post office network to meet the changing needs of modern Ireland. It would be an ideal solution for delivery of motor tax and driving licences, and would alleviate the pressure on the overcrowded city offices. Cork County Council has only one motor tax office in the county and three offices in the county for driving licences. It will eliminate the strain on the designated motor tax offices. Some €63 million could be saved in five years on motor tax alone if post offices were to be used to deliver this service.

There are enormous opportunities for using our post offices as the point of contact for more Government services. The decision to develop post offices as Government front offices will have a spin-off effect on enhancing the viability of rural communities. Other Government services that the post offices could provide include, in the health area, medical card applications; in agriculture, farm grant applications; in transport, driving licences and tax certificates; and in social welfare, payments, acceptance of medical certificates, back-to-school allowance applications and all applications for payments. The post office network could also be paid to provide assistance and advice to people looking for information on Government services. Then post offices could play an increasingly important role.

Where appropriate, post offices should be open for longer hours, including lunchtime opening. Integrating post office tills with point of sale terminals for some services may reduce costs and ensure out-of-hours provision.

Electronic banking, that was promised for early 2016, needs to be introduced now and the delays at Government level need to be resolved. The only viable alternative to a declining social welfare dependent model is community or public banking through the post office network , such as that in New Zealand that has led to the turnaround in fortunes for the Kiwi post office and made it the success it is today. An Post needs to roll out debit cards and full access to ATM and point of sale facilities. An Post accounts need to be accessible by Internet, phone and mobile phone apps. Does the Government acknowledge that a post bank is the way forward, and if so, what action has it taken to research and develop a model, such as the Kiwibank, that can be implemented through the post office network and thus ensure viability? An Post should also examine the potential for introducing ATMs external to post office premises. An Post should provide banking services to all banks. I have had complaints from many of my constituents about the fact that they have to travel more than 30 miles from their local post office to lodge money into their bank each week.

Mobile post offices are not the answer and I am strongly opposed to their introduction. I come from a community where banks have been replaced with mobile banks. Is it, as Deputy Fitzmaurice stated, a Noddy-type service we will have people going around from place to place with their little vans so that the post offices can be got rid? The quickest way of dismantling our valuable post office network is the mobile service. It is the death knell of the postal service. We must not allow an unwise decision to be taken. It is possible for us to use this highly effective network to deliver a wide range of services at little cost. As stated, the post office network, if utilised in the way which I have outlined, has the potential to save millions of euro while creating further employment and enhancing the sustainability of rural communities.

I am also completely opposed to the idea of having only one post office every 15 km. This is unacceptable and unsuitable. In particular, it does not serve people in rural Ireland where there is no public transport service. I urge the Government not to introduce this damning measure.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I am looking for a little co-operation. We have exceeded the time. I ask both the Government and Deputy Mattie McGrath, who have ten minutes each, to confine it to nine.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Does the Leas-Cheann Comhairle want us to go faster?

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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It is the order of the House.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I know.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I understand the Minister of State is sharing with Deputy Jim Daly and the Minister, Deputy Humphreys.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the members of the Rural Alliance for using their Private Members' time to talk about the postal network, to highlight not only the importance of it but also the challenges the network is facing, particularly in the digital age.

A Programme for a Partnership Government acknowledges the importance of the post office network and commits to take action to protect the future of the network, including through the implementation of the post office business development group report, the roll-out by An Post of an e-payment account and the development of community banking along with a range of other services. We want to see the local post office re-established as a hub, giving people living locally access to a range of services.

As a Deputy representing a constituency that includes large urban areas but very large rural areas, small villages and large towns, I understand the importance of the local post office as a community focal point for a wide variety of different people, such as those living in isolated rural areas for whom the local post office is a vital link to services, those living in small villages for whom the post office is a major economic driver and those many older people living in larger towns for whom the post office is a community touchstone. For all these reasons, the post office and the wider network is worth protecting and defending.

It would be naive of us not to accept the reality of the digital age in which we live. If the local post office is vital to older people who grew up using its services, we must recognise that for many young people today, our digital natives, the local post office is seen as an outdated institution. This generation uses e-mail, text, WhatsApp and Facebook. They do not use postage stamps. They bank online, pay their bills online and live a large portion of their lives online without the need to queue in line in a post office for any service that is currently provided. This is as true for those young people living in rural Ireland as it is for their counterparts living in urban Ireland. Our post office network needs to offer the digital natives, who will in a few short years make up the majority of our population, access to the services they need.

We all are aware of the post office network business development group's report and I will not dwell on it. I refer to a second report that was prepared last year by Accenture, entitled Achieving High Performance in the Post and Parcel Industry. This international report assessed a number of postal services in countries across the world, all of which are facing challenges like ours, and highlighted where those companies were succeeding. The report identified a number of areas where traditional postal services could find success, including the need to take steps to defend their core business by investing in product innovation to offer a better service, investing in parcel opportunities, which is an area of real potential, and diversifying, especially into the area of logistics and taking advantage of the digital opportunities which are being created.

Every single post office in this country is an ideal opportunity to provide a Parcel Motel location. It will bring our younger people, who are doing all of their purchases online, directly into this community touchstone to allow them to access the other services they are not even recognising in their daily lives. In the development of our post offices, can we please look not only at Parcel Motel but also at that kind of initiative?

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State for her co-operation.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Fáiltím an deis labhartha ar an ábhar tábhachtach seo. At the outset, I will declare an interest. My brother owns the local post office in the village I come from, Drinagh, in west Cork. I spent many happy summers delivering the post for An Post and I have many fond memories of that.

This debate always amuses me at some points and infuriates me at others because we miss a lot of the real detail when we start talking and when politics gets introduced. Populist politics does not really contribute much to the debate on post offices.

I come from a constituency where recently I had the great honour of attending the re-opening of a post office in west Cork. Leap post office, which had closed a couple of years ago because an issue arose with the people running it, thankfully re-opened two or three weeks ago. We had a great afternoon celebrating it. My colleague opposite, Deputy Michael Collins, was there as well. It is not all doom and gloom in the post office sector, but there are threats there and issues we must keep a watchful eye out for.

However, it is not Government intervention that is required in the post office system, but old-fashioned management. Somebody must take it by the scruff of the neck, drag it up and ask what it will do to make itself relevant and join the real world. Government intervention will be all about bureaucracy, rules and regulations, so that is not the solution. The decline of post offices is a symptom, not the disease. People attacking the symptom are missing the point. The issues affecting rural Ireland are much bigger and greater. It is far too narrow a focus to discuss them in the context of post offices.

I will conclude on a final issue. It really annoys me to hear Members of the House demand that the Department of Social Protection insist on payments being made through post offices. I resent and reject that call by the Members on the benches opposite. It is abhorrent that we should force people who are sick, elderly, vulnerable or who are carers not to have their money put into their banks like the rest of us. They must traipse down to the post office and collect their payment.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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We never said that.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I did not interrupt the Deputy. If he is feeling the heat, there is a reason for it. I resent that demand being made to the Minister. I have seen Members of the House try to insist that the most vulnerable in society-----

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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Not us.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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In fact, they are using the most vulnerable in society as a pawn in their attempt to keep post offices alive. People should be entitled to have the moneys delivered to the place of their choice. Every option should be made available to them, and that should be made known to them.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I acknowledge the commitment shown by the Deputies who have spoken on this motion. I also acknowledge the presence in the Visitors Gallery of members of the Irish Postmasters' Union. It is clear from what has been said that there is a strong wish for the post office network not only to survive, but to thrive in an increasingly digital world. I commend the Members on bringing the motion before the House. They are committed to supporting communities across rural Ireland and the rural post office network is very important in that regard.

As Minister with responsibility for rural Ireland, I am acutely aware of the numerous challenges that exist. There is no single, quick-fix solution for rural Ireland. That is the reason I am taking a new co-ordinated approach across Government to help rural communities to succeed. I am currently putting in place an action plan for rural development. Since taking on the rural Ireland brief, the Minister of State, Deputy Ring, and I have invested €22 million in rural initiatives such as the town and village enhancement scheme, the rural economic development zones and rural recreation scheme, to name a few. That is in addition to the €250 million Leader fund for rural Ireland.

Specifically in regard to post offices, my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Ring, has highlighted some of the fundamental issues that face An Post. At the same time, no Member of the Oireachtas would deny that the post office network plays a valuable role in serving the needs of rural businesses, communities and domestic customers. The ongoing systematic change in the postal sector is forcing post offices across the world to evolve. An Post is no different. The company is very aware that it must complement its existing products and services with new revenue streams. The proposal from the Minister of State, Deputy Regina Doherty, is something we should consider pursuing further. Despite the obvious challenges, I remain optimistic about the future of the company and the network.

There are many positives on which to build. Over 1 million people visit post offices throughout the country every week. The post office remains the most important source of access to cash for many elderly citizens and its retail network is unrivalled in terms of both size and distribution. I am also greatly encouraged by the work of the post office hub working group, as outlined by the Minister of State, Deputy Ring. The models it has identified, such as co-operative post offices and shared value post offices, have the potential to make a significant impact on rural communities. Officials in my Department are also working with colleagues from the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government to examine the potential for a motor tax renewal service to be offered through the post office network. This option will be of benefit to people who might not have the facilities at this time to renew their motor tax online, which is becoming increasingly popular, or who might wish to pay for their motor tax renewal with cash.

The post office network renewal implementation group, led by Mr. Bobby Kerr, is concluding its work in the next couple of weeks. Recommendations from the group are expected to issue shortly to the board and management of An Post. It is important that every Member of the House recognise the value of letting this process come to a natural conclusion before any decisions are taken. The fact that it has been ongoing for a number of months reflects the complexity and impact of the issues at stake. I strongly believe that if we work together we can achieve our collective goal of a sustainable post office network which will deliver for everybody.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I thank everybody who has contributed to the debate, as well as the Leas-Cheann Comhairle and other Acting Chairmen. I also thank Deputy Michael Healy-Rae, my other colleagues in the Rural Independent Alliance and the Minister of State, Deputy Ring, for the discussions last weekend to try to reach an agreed solution, and I thank the Chief Whip, Deputy Regina Doherty, for accepting the motion. It is important to have a united front tonight. I acknowledge Tom O'Callaghan and the members of the IPU. Indeed, I must declare an interest as my sister is a postmistress in Tipperary. I thank her and wish a speedy recovery to the main member of her staff, Helen, who had a stroke recently.

Much has been said in this debate, but all talk and no action is no good. However, there were many decent and honest contributions. I am disappointed that Deputy Jim Daly made allegations. I hope he will withdraw them before this concludes or clarify who is trying to coerce people on social welfare to be paid only in the post office. We never said that. We only seek choice and not to be forced to have it paid into banks. We never asked that anybody be coerced or bullied as to where it is paid.

The Minister of State, Deputy Ring, addressed the meeting. The one item I wish to call him out on is the wanderly wagon idea. He should forget it. The wheels have fallen off enough wagons and we do not want them falling off this one as well, because that is what will happen. We will be going around with satellite navigators trying to find it. I accept that his colleague the Taoiseach had a wanderly mobile clinic, as I had at one stage, but do not try to imitate that. We do not need that.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy was the one on the wanderly wagon.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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The Minister also mentioned customer focus and the Kerr group.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Remember when he went to Fianna Fáil.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State had his opportunity to speak, so please respect the speaker.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I have only two questions. Will the Government give a commitment that its contracts for procurement will include a social as well an economic element in the future? That is vital. We saw what happened with the driving licence system. It was farmed out and made so prohibitive that the post offices could not tender for it. John Daly, director of retail operations in An Post, told an Oireachtas committee on 8 November last that the future of the country's 1,100 post offices is now unsustainable and that the network is on the verge of collapse. Deputy Donnelly spoke about the post office in Arklow town. It is not a rural issue, but a rural and urban issue. There are small post offices in the heart of Dublin. I cannot say enough to thank the postmistresses and postmasters, fir an phoist agus mná an phoist, and everybody who has worked to deliver post. Even Deputy Jim Daly delivered post when he was a buachaill óg, as he said. I thank all the people who provide that service.

This is a vital service which has existed for hundreds of years. It must be enhanced. I have been a Member of the House for more than nine years and we have talked about this matter repeatedly. Successive Governments, one of which included me, talked about it, but more post offices were closed than were kept open. I put my hand up and admit that. Now, we have reached the bottom line. It is down to the core issue. We must protect these services. Many Members made excellent contributions tonight. Deputy Harty got elected for the "No Doctor, No Village" campaign. If there is no post office, there is certainly no village. There is no postmaster or postmistress to provide a service for anybody. These people were a social focal point. They were form fillers and did everything for people. When people did not have telephones, they were uimhir a haoin ar an dial-up telephone and they made contact for everybody. They filled forms, notified people about funerals, telegrams and so forth. The history, heritage and legacy are there and we must protect that.

People talk about rural Ireland as if it was a foreign place. It is here and we live in it, but it is diminishing and disappearing. Garda stations, factories and creameries have gone, so the post office is the last bastion and the last stand. I welcome the people who have come to the Visitors Gallery tonight. We must promote them. Other models have been mentioned, including the one in New Zealand. There are also models in Germany. I wish to put some figures on the record. We all believe Germany is full of huge multinational companies that are very successful. We tend to think that is down Siemens, Allianz, Bayer, Mercedes and the like. In fact, a research report found that 3.6 million small and medium entrepreneurs are the backbone of the German economy. That is similar to the situation in Ireland, although it is not to the same scale. These entrepreneurs represent 99.9% of all companies, and 87% have a turnover of less than €1 million.

Less than 1% have a turnover greater than €50 million. This is where we are coming in. We can emulate what they do in Germany, where community banks are supported and profits go back into communities. I compliment The Wheel and Irish Rural Link on holding the conference and the people who attended. Some of them are in the Gallery. We need to consider it in order to revitalise rural areas and allow them to have banking facilities in the post offices.

As Deputy Michael Collins said, there should be a front-office focus for Government services instead of taking them away and banishing them to hell or to Connacht. We should support and enhance them. We should take the handcuffs and the blindfolds off postmasters and allow them to do what they do so well. We should give them the tools of the trade in this regard. They are not begging. We are not beggars looking for charity. We want to be allowed to continue thriving businesses that provide employment. We want them to be used as official tourist offices, given that they operate in this way in an unofficial capacity. Somebody said that they are not allowed to accept parcels from courier vans. They do it anyway. They provide all kinds of services. If the parish priest cannot turn up for mass, who does he tell? The postmistress.

I have anecdotal evidence of three people in my small area who missed collecting their pensions at the post office and alarm bells went off. Two of them were found alive thanks to the alertness of the postmistress or her staff. One of them, sadly, had been out preparing for Christmas, picking material to make holly wreaths and was, unfortunately, found dead. He would not have been found for a week had the postmistress not missed him. It is the social fabric that we discuss here in debate after debate. They had a social fabric, in the veins of rural Ireland. We just enabled them. The Kerr report was been published in January. What aspects of it have we implemented? We get eminent people to produce reports. We put money in and carry out consultation processes but what happens to the reports? They gather dust on a shelf. There is confusion as to which Ministers in what Departments are responsible for rural development and we need to sort it out.

Many of my Rural Independent Group colleagues took part in the creation of the programme for Government and negotiated many aspects of it. Our job is to police it. I thank the Government for taking the motion. It is the second motion we have brought forward, and the Government has accepted both. It is magnanimous and is new politics working. However, we need action and delivery. I will be here, week in week out, as will my colleagues on these and other benches watching the Government and policing it. Tá an leabhar agam san oifig. I have the programme for Government and I will monitor it line by line. No issue is more important for rural and urban Ireland than that we are discussing.

The Government can provide Internet hubs for training courses. Rural Ireland is 30% behind compared to towns. We want outlets where students can go to fill in their CAO forms. They can have the broadband in the post offices, maybe not provided by Eir but by some other means. We cannot get it in rural Ireland. We are being hindered, restricted and stifled. That must change. Driving licence applications could be dealt with in post offices. Farm grants applications and transactions could be completed there. There are numerous services that could be handled by post offices, simple thinking and simple changes are all that is required.

I address myself to the Department's officials. In the programme for Government, the Taoiseach promised official Ireland would change as well as the Government, that it would be more engaging and interested in allowing activities to transfer from Department to Department. He promised that there would be more normalised behaviour, not empires in which Departments have ownership of areas and tell other Departments to back off. We do not need that. We need a modern post office network that will deliver what it is capable of delivering. We have come through decades of services from the postmistress. They moved on, upgraded, got IT-savvy and did everything else they were asked to do, will do, are able to do and want and wish to do in order to support people and supply services. All we have to do is allow them to proceed. We are prohibiting them and tying their hands behind their backs.

I have just enough time to thank the people who worked with me on the motion and my office staff. I appeal that all this talk will not go to waste and that the motion be agreed to without a division tomorrow, that the Government will implement what we, the IPU, Tom O'Callaghan and postmistresses around the country have asked for, and what is common sense, namely, to allow this, one of the last bastions of rural society, to continue to flourish, not to stifle it but to allow it to serve the public. They want to be of service. We are Teachtaí Dála, public servants; they are public servants. They receive a pittance for every transaction, not a salary. I ask the people out there, my family and everybody else, to use it or lose it. We must support the post offices. We will ensure the Government plays its part. The postmasters and postmistresses will do it, as will the sub-offices. It is up to the people to use the post offices. Deputy Jim Daly might be able to clarify his remarks. Could the Minister ask him to withdraw them? Nobody is trying to coerce anybody. People should have the option of receiving their social welfare payments in the post office, and not be discouraged from doing so.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I have to terminate. Whatever injury time we had, the Deputy used it up.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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It was like the speeches the Minister of State, Deputy Ring, used to make when he was over on this side.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I was clearer.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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He is able to deliver now, if he wants to deliver.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Leave it to me, Mattie.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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The Minister of State is well able to. Forget the mobile.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy and the Minister of State can have a bilateral outside.