Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I remind Members that a Deputy has four minutes for an initial statement and a Minister or Minister of State has four minutes to reply. A Deputy has two minutes for a supplementary question and a Minister or Minister of State has two minutes to reply. That is a total of 12 minutes and I will stick very rigidly to that in order to keep to schedule.

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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I am grateful for the opportunity to raise this issue, at long last, in the Chamber with the Minister, Deputy Bruton. The issue has left the headlines because of the Garda dispute but it is of serious concern and worry to parents and students around the country. We have probably all experienced a teacher strike in our lifetime and one day off here or there is probably considered a bit of a bonus for children. However, I attended a careers fair a couple of weeks ago and the number of secondary school students who came to me to express their worry about the ASTI industrial disputes - there is more than one - was just incredible. Students are deeply worried and parents are quite stressed out, wondering what is going to happen next week. I suppose I am asking the Minister to set out an update on the position of the talks with ASTI. There are talks going on regarding the current strike and industrial action and I also understand there are talks ongoing about junior certificate reform and the 10% figure for marks, which is another serious concern for parents that is becoming more of a talking point.

As my colleague, Deputy Jim O'Callaghan, said this morning to the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality, there are a number of sides to this and the fundamental duty of the State in the case of the Minister for Education and Skills is to provide education to our students. What is his contingency plan in the event of action escalating next week and schools having to close? Is he planning to notify parents of what is happening throughout the country, as there is considerable confusion? Although the matter is chaotic, there is confusion being added to the chaos of the Government's planning.

What is the Minister doing to engage directly with ASTI members, as I have done, to explain what is in the Lansdowne Road agreement and try to persuade them of its merits? There is considerable merit in the Lansdowne Road agreement and the Irish National Teachers Organisation, INTO, and the Teachers Union of Ireland, TUI, see that as well. It is unfortunate that ASTI members are getting left behind with regard to some of the improvements, particularly the improvement negotiated during the summer relating to young teachers. The Minister could go one step further in helping resolve the issue by saying the Government supports equal pay scales for all workers. That statement has proven difficult to get from Ministers and the Government over the past number of weeks but it would make a significant difference.

What have been the engagements of the Minister and the Department? Today, we were due to have a meeting of the Oireachtas education committee but the Department and ASTI requested that the meeting would not take place in public today. The committee agreed on the basis that, one could presume, some progress was being made in talks. We will certainly hold the meeting next week if that progress does not come about. I hope our assumption was correct. I look forward to hearing the Minister's response and what he has been doing. Many people are watching this so I hope to hear him explain to parents what will happen next week. Quite frankly, most people are in the dark.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Byrne for raising the issue. I absolutely agree this is a major concern for students and parents alike. I am very disappointed at the decision of the ASTI to take industrial action, and it will cause serious disruption for up to 250,000 students and their parents. However, talks have been continuing all this week and last week on both of the issues to which the Deputy referred, specifically junior certificate reform and the current dispute. We are working really hard to try to find a solution.

It is important to recognise the dispute we are facing on Monday is not about newly qualified teachers' pay but rather the withdrawal of supervision and substitution services, which could cause indefinite closure of schools that would be directly affected. It is important to put this in context because the withdrawal of supervision and substitution is the withdrawal of a core part of a teacher's duties. As the Deputy knows, in July the ASTI decided unilaterally to withdraw from working 33 so-called Croke Park hours, which facilitate parents and students with important meetings not in school time. These extra hours apply throughout the public service so it is not fair or equitable for one group of public servants to decide they will withdraw from these contractual hours when every other public servant works them. That caused the withdrawal of the benefits that accrue under the Lansdowne Road agreement, including the substitution and supervision payment that every other teacher gets.

I agree with Deputy Byrne that we must try to explain to teachers the benefits on the table with this deal. I have tried hard to progressively improve the position of teachers through negotiations with both the INTO and TUI. As the Deputy knows, we achieved flexibility in the use of Croke Park hours in May and in September we achieved a breakthrough on a deal for newly qualified teachers that provides up to a 22% increase in pay for those teachers. In the budget we provided for new posts of promotional opportunities for teachers. We have been trying to extend the benefits of these various agreements to ASTI members, and that is why we are so keen to continue trying to resolve this.

With regard to contingency plans, the ultimate decision of whether to have a school open is a matter for each school. However, we sought to keep schools open, get agreement from the ASTI that principals would co-operate with the deployment of alternative staff and that we would be given enough time for the schools to recruit those alternative staff so it would be possible for schools to remain open. Unfortunately, the ASTI declined to do this. As a result, many schools have had to make a decision on whether they can meet health and safety requirements of supervision of children. It is our understanding that a large number of schools will not be able to remain open once supervision and substitution services are withdrawn. Schools will notify parents as each school will make a different decision, based on particular circumstances. As the Deputy knows, some secondary schools are entirely made up of TUI teachers, some are mixed and some are made up of ASTI teachers. It is ultimately the schools that will have to make that decision based on health and safety considerations.

I assure the Deputy that throughout this I have been at pains to seek to keep schools open and extend to ASTI members the benefits that are possible.

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister's statement is of deep concern. Essentially, he is reporting that there has been no progress in the talks which have taken place over the past several weeks. Had this question been asked two weeks ago, the answer would have been exactly the same. What has been happening in the talks? Has some progress taken place? A door was opened last week by the president of the ASTI. Was that opportunity grasped by the Department at the time? My understanding at that point was that there was a willingness to engage openly. What happened? Was that opportunity lost or is it still being worked on?

It is not good enough to put the entire responsibility of opening and closing schools on to the Joint Managerial Body, JMB, the Association of Community and Comprehensive Schools, ACCS, or the education and training boards, ETBs. Most parents are not familiar with these organisations. If this goes on past next Wednesday, people will be fed up and looking at what the Government has done to ensure their children are educated in accordance with their rights at second level, rights started off by Donogh O'Malley 50 years ago. It is not good enough to pass the buck to schools.

Yet again, the Minister has refused to outline any commitment whatsoever to equal pay. Who can be against equal pay scales? It cannot be a negotiating tactic that one does not support equal pay scales. If the Minister would give such a commitment on the floor of the House, or if the Taoiseach had done so last week, it would make a difference. No one is expecting the pay rates will change tomorrow. What they know is that members of the Irish National Teachers Organisation, INTO, and the Teachers Union of Ireland, TUI, will get increased pay rates from January. I would like the ASTI to be part of that. If that signal could be sent on equal pay, it would make a significant difference. I urge the Minister to take that opportunity. That has been said many times by many of the people involved.

Next week there will be pressure on our students and a worry for their parents, while many teachers are at an information deficit.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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The Department cannot make a decision for a school whether it opens or closes. The school has to make that decision on the basis of whether it can provide the level of supervision necessary to ensure the health and safety of the pupils. That is the responsibility of schools. We have leaned over backwards to put them into a position in which they could do that. We sought to have such an agreement with the ASTI but one was not forthcoming. This has put many schools in an impossible situation and they are not able to stay open in face of this.

As for the suggestion from Mr. Ed Byrne that something could be done, he described it himself as a musing and no formal offer has been advanced by the ASTI. We have a formal proposal on the table, namely, we would pay in full all the supervision and substitution moneys, extend new entrant pay up to 22% for newly qualified teachers, extend flexibility on Croke Park hours and extend promotional opportunities. These are conditional if the ASTI does the same as every other public servant and works the hours agreed under the Croke Park agreement. That is fair and equitable.

Deputy Thomas Byrne also raised the question of whether it is fair and equitable. The point has to be made, however, that it is not appropriate to negotiate with every public service union in public. One cannot hold these negotiations over the airwaves. One also has to bear in mind what the trade union IMPACT said, namely, that it would not be fair or equitable to enter into a sectorial arrangement with one union which does not respect the agreement that applies to every other union. We have to be fair and equitable to all the many groups which look to the Department of Education and Skills and other Departments for resources to meet their legitimate demands. These issues need to be negotiated under the process outlined by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, which is the way we can advance all these concerns.