Dáil debates

Tuesday, 25 October 2016

Ceisteanna - Questions

Appointments to State Boards

4:20 pm

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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13. To ask the Taoiseach if he will provide a list of all vacancies that existed on 26 February 2016 and all positions that have arisen since, including the date each vacancy arose, for State boards or governing bodies under his control; the names of those appointed since the Government was formed; if each position was advertised and a short-list was provided to him by the Public Appointments Service; if the appointments were approved by the Cabinet; and the positions under his control that are not subject to the Public Appointments Service system. [31639/16]

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I make appointments to the National Economic and Social Council, NESC, in accordance with the provisions of the National Economic and Social Development Office Act 2006 and the National Economic and Social Council (Alteration of Composition) Order 2010 - SI 603 of 2010. The Statistics Act 1993 gives me authority to make appointments to the National Statistics Board, NSB. I have delegated this authority to the Minister of State at my Department and Chief Whip, Deputy Regina Doherty. In the case of the NESC, the legislation provides that I appoint up to 20 members on the basis of nominations from the organisations or interests set out, with up to six public servants and up to eight independent members. The independent members are mainly from the academic sector.

The Statistics Act 1993 provides for an eight-member NSB, including the director general of the CSO, ex officio, one representative each from my Department and the Department of Finance, two nominated by the Minister of State and three by organisations representative of the users of official statistics and providers of information under the Act.

One vacancy existed on the NESC on 26 February 2016 from one of the nominating organisations. No vacancies existed on the NSB. Since then, the five-year term of the full NESC has expired. I have not yet reappointed a council. On 8 September 2016, Mr. John Callinan, second Secretary General at the Department of the Taoiseach, resigned from the NSB and was replaced on 15 September 2016 by Mr. John Shaw, assistant secretary in my Department. There have been no other appointments to the NSB since this Government was formed.

Under the legislation, appointments to either the NSB and NESC do not require Government approval. Where appropriate and consistent with the legislation, future vacancies in the NESC and NSB will be advertised on www.stateboards.iein accordance with the guidelines on appointments to State boards.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I am concerned about what the Government is doing regarding appointments. I wish to draw to the Taoiseach's attention the appointments to the board of Ervia announced by his Government on 6 July 2016. The four members appointed are the chairman, Mr. Keohane, whom I understand is Irish, a Mr. Banks, whom I understand is from Scottish Water, a Mr. Barry, whom I understand is Irish, and a Mr. Keith Harris, whom I understand may be English but who at least is appointed in the context of his having served on the board of Wessex Water. With regard to having people from all over Ireland and possibly Northern Ireland on the board, there are, from what I read, two Irish appointees and two from the United Kingdom. Most noticeable of all is that, among the four people appointed to a board on one day, there is not one woman. Do we not have at least two female engineers in this country or women involved in business or finance, either from the North or South, who could actually have an audience with the Government with a view to being appointed to a major board that oversees gas and other energy networks and also our water networks? What happened on this occasion? Was the collective Cabinet asleep? When I was a member of the Cabinet, the issue of the number of women appointed to boards was always a matter for attention, not least by me but also by other Cabinet members, including those from the Taoiseach's party. I really want to understand this.

I have looked for an answer and have read the documentation on these people from Ervia. Obviously, the Public Appointments Commission must have recommended them all, but Deputy Simon Coveney made these appointments. What came over him in a country which is weighed down with qualified women North and South that he had four major appointments to make and could not recommend one woman. Apparently nobody in the Cabinet, unless the Taoiseach is prepared to share information to the contrary with us, put up his or her hand and asked whether we have a few women in this country. Supposing four women were appointed, and there would be more than four women perfectly capable of taking on this position, maybe one of the lads would have put up his hand and ask why there were no men. Could the Taoiseach please explain what happened on 6 July 2016? Presumably, the new-ish Cabinet is very eager to show its mettle on very important issues, such as the proper and full participation of women, as of right, as of ability and as of what they have to contribute but they have been entirely excluded from this board appointment.

4:30 pm

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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Does Deputy Martin want to make a short contribution at this point?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Do the NESC and the NSB come under the public appointments system?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not think so.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I noticed that the Taoiseach's language was-----

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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They are nominated by organisations, and most of them are academic.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, so they do not come under the public appointments system. I noted from the Taoiseach's reply to us-----

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not think they come under the public appointments system, but I will confirm that to the Deputy.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There is a wonderful phrase in the Taoiseach's reply, something like "where appropriate" and so on, which I took to mean that it is not appropriate and that they do not come under the public appointments service at all. The civil servant used the kind of language that gently lets one down, but it was very good. I just wanted to clarify that point.

Second, how well is the public appointments system working? I got the sense that the last Government tied itself up in knots by announcing principles by which people were to be appointed but, when it came to their own appointments, doing it differently and using the ministerial exemption clause or various other reasons to appoint people who circumvented the public appointments route. The Taoiseach may not have the information to hand but perhaps he could communicate to me the number appointed to State boards that have gone through the public appointments system and those who were appointed in a way that was not subject to that system. I also await the reply to Deputy Burton's question.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will have to come back to Deputy Martin on the latter point. As far as I understand, it seems to be working reasonably well in that applications are invited. They are made completely independently of anybody in Government. The applicants go before the Public Appointments Service. It is not even known, except by those processing the application, who applies. Whichever Minister is responsible then gets a list of persons with appropriate experience to serve on whatever the board in question might be. I will supply Deputy Martin with all the information in this regard.

As Deputy Burton is well aware, there are now more women serving at Cabinet level than ever before. The Chief Justice is a woman, the Attorney General is a woman, the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP, is a woman, all of whom are working away and doing a very fine job. In the case of the board Deputy Burton mentions, the Minister, Deputy Coveney, has dealt with this, but there is a requirement in this case that a board of that nature have an input from NewERA in terms of the qualifications, experience and so on of the people to be appointed. I cannot answer the Deputy's question as to why an exceptionally competent, experienced woman is not on the board. I will give Deputy Burton some details in this regard. For instance, the gender balance of the board of the NSB has improved. I think representation of women on the board is up from 12.5% to 37.5%. The chair of the board is Dr. Patricia O'Hara, who was reappointed in order to ensure continuity with the ongoing work of the board. She brings a wealth of experience and expertise to this role, including from her academic career and as a member of the European Statistical Governance Advisory Board. I will give Deputy Burton the up-to-date information as I get it.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Burton to respond very briefly because we are almost out of time.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We really do not need "fine girl you are" style compliments.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That is not fair.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I think everybody here knows the capacity and ability of women in this country. I ask Deputy Kenny, in his capacity as Taoiseach and chairperson of the Cabinet, how a set of board appointments came to the Cabinet in this manner. By the way, as I am sure the Taoiseach remembers, the outgoing chair of this institution was a woman - a very well-known businesswoman - yet when a time came for major changes on a very significant board, which has control-----

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----of billions of Government assets, four appointments-----

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I will not allow a speech now. We are over time.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I ask the Taoiseach if-----

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I was more than finished and I let Deputy Burton back in.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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There is supposed to be a situation in government whereby, as far as possible, 50% of appointments are women.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Four appointments on any one board is a lot of appointments to make, so why did the Taoiseach or anyone else not put up his or her hand and ask-----

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should give the Taoiseach-----

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----why they did not have women for these positions-----

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----in equal numbers?

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I call the Taoiseach to respond very briefly.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I assure the Acting Chairman that the Government has absolutely every intention of appointing as many competent women to positions as they are nominated for. I do not have access-----

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Is the Taoiseach implying that-----

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Burton, please.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is wrong of Deputy Burton to suggest or imply that there is some sort of bias from a Government perspective about the appointment of capable women to positions. She picks out one statistic showing that four men were appointed. That is not the same as the ordinary Public Appointments Service board nominations. This is a very big commercial entity that requires an input from NewERA, as she is well aware from her experience.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Sorry-----

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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We are moving on.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will supply Deputy Burton with all the lists of those who have been appointed through the Public Appointments Service in the hope that there be a recognition not only of the value of women's input into this, but also of the improvement in the gender balance from what it used to be.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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That concludes question to the Taoiseach. I offered a lot of latitude there, and as we move to questions to the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Charles Flanagan, I will adhere strictly to the time slots, which are six and a half minutes.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Come on, St. Brigid's.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Taoiseach.