Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government for taking the time to come here today. I know he has agreed to meet four Deputies on this issue but I wanted to table this very important issue. The last time we discussed this issue, the Minister said other level V counties have similar numbers of staff and seem to do a better job with the resources given to them. I need to put some matters in context. Very significant progress has been made regarding the financial difficulties in Sligo County Council. There has been a 37% reduction in the number of staff, and the total now stands at 374. Among the other level V counties, Roscommon has 393, Monaghan has 385 and Laois has 384 - all more than Sligo - but none has a port or harbour to deal with, or a regeneration programme. Eight staff are involved in the Cranmore regeneration programme, and two more in the harbours. Sligo has the highest social mix in the country after Cork and Limerick. There are 2.5,000 council houses, well above the other level V counties. That requires additional administration, engineering staff and outdoor maintenance staff. The urban area in Sligo is significantly larger than in the other level V counties. The Minister says the other counties are doing a better job than Sligo despite the fact that Sligo has fewer staff and a much bigger burden of work.

The discretionary spend for Sligo County Council is €2.6 million, that is, around 4%, down from some 7% or 8% in 2008 when times were better. The surplus that will be shown this year by Sligo County Council as it strives to recover from past difficulties and its €25 million deficit is €1.6 million. That is a truly remarkable outcome from the efforts of people locally, the new council, elected representatives and the executive, with a cut of 36% in staff to well below other level V counties that do not have the same burdens. The financial plan for next year has been thrown at us in a way that reminds me of the behaviour of the troika, Brussels and the ECB as revealed in the rhetoric of Jean Claude Trichet in the farce where he came to give evidence in Dublin Castle to the banking inquiry. Department officials tell us we agreed with this plan when in reality, in August 2015, the Department prescribed the level of cuts and the surplus of €1.6 million, which is being met. Next year, that is to be €3.6 million. The Department wants Sligo County Council to have a surplus next year of 140% of its discretionary spend.

Discretionary spend is the meat and potatoes in terms of what people expect from councils. I refer to housing maintenance, local roads lighting and road safety, public conveniences, tourist development contributions, heritage issues, match funding, environmental campaigns, life-saving, beach maintenance, library books, the arts and grants. In terms of what our meeting will be about next week, which I want to put on record here today, the surplus target of €3.6 million, or 140% of the discretionary fund, is unachievable. It cannot and will not be achieved, notwithstanding the six additional staff sanctioned for the library services that were kept open, for which I thank the Minister. There are other measures coming down the track, so we will be continually fighting fires. The reality is that with all the cuts we have already made, we will struggle to meet a surplus target next year of €1.6 million. To put a surplus target of €3.6 million on it is an impossibility.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for the opportunity to respond on this issue again. As he said, we will have an opportunity to discuss it next Thursday when we will meet to discuss these issues. I want to put on record a number of points. Nobody disputes that the financial challenges Sligo County Council faces are significant. That is the reason there is a financial plan in place to help Sligo County Council get back on an even keel from a financial management perspective.

The current chief executive of the local authority has done a very good job in many ways in terms of trying to achieve many of the targets that have been set. If we consider the improved position in terms of rates collection, for example, what has been done in terms of reducing staff numbers, maintaining output, services and so on. However, it is important to say that Sligo is the only county in the country that has a financial plan of this type whereby there is an agreement by the Department that if certain targets which have been signed up to by the local authority are met, my Department would sanction an extra €1 million to support the council in terms of the financial difficulties it faces. Clearly, that was not enough this year.

The chief executive wrote to me and then subsequently met me, along with the cathaoirleach of the council. We went through that letter and as far as I know, everything that was asked for in terms of flexibility, has now been given. That is an extra six staff for library services plus the money to pay them rather than simply sanctioning increased staff numbers as is the case for most other local authorities when they get extra staff, and other considerable flexibilities in terms of meeting some payment schedules next year rather than this year.

We continue to work with the chief executive and Sligo County Council on trying to meet and, when necessary, amend the financial management plan that is in place to try to help Sligo County Council get back to a situation where the financial management is sustainable again. What is being asked for here is that we start the process of negotiating a new financial plan when we only signed off on this one less than 12 months ago. What I am saying is that the basis for us will be the current plan but we want to work with management and we have been willing to show flexibility and provide extra supports to help Sligo County Council move through the process of getting back to a sustainable financial position. It is a difficult journey, and I am not pretending it is not.

I believe the chief executive has done a good job since he came in. He inherited a very difficult situation and much progress has been made in the first year since that plan was agreed last December. However, while we are making that progress, which has been difficult, I do not believe it is advisable to simply bin it and start again. Instead, we should work with that plan. We have already recalculated and reset some of the targets, given the changes and the accommodation that we have given on request from the management. There is a big onus on the management team to respond. Ultimately, it is their responsibility to manage the finances of the council. We are here to help in that. We are doing that at the moment, and have shown a good deal of flexibility in that endeavour, but the idea that we should simply tear up and start again will create many other problems.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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The point being missed is that there is no problem. The council has done an exceptional job in following the plan heretofore to the best of its ability. It is time the Minister was prepared to admit, as assistant secretary Lemass was prepared to admit, that the Department prescribed surpluses of €12. 5 million to be delivered by 2019. I am telling the Minister that that is not possible against the backdrop of all the cuts already done. In terms of what they can do, they are out-performing in many ways. It is not reasonable for the Minister to say, "You agreed this so get on with it, like the ECB did. Live horse and get grass. If you cannot afford the services for the people, that is your problem." No, it is not our problem. The people are sovereign in a republic. The people of Cork and the people of Sligo are no different, and we have a responsibility to provide for them. A surplus target of €12.2 million is too much. A surplus target of €3.6 million next year is too much. It cannot and will not be achieved. The Department prescribed those savings, albeit that Sligo County Council ultimately agreed to them under duress, and when it does not meet that €3.6 million surplus target next year the Department will pull that €1 million back because that is what the Minister said he will do.

In addition to that, since this plan was agreed we have had Brexit, which is already having a significant impact on the retail community in a Border county like Sligo. Foreign direct investment jobs in that area are down 300. We have the highest commercial vacancy rate in Ireland at 16.8%. We have population decline. Those are CSO figures, not Marc MacSharry having a rant. We can skirt around the bush here and the Minister can say we want to tear up the plan. I do not want to tear up any plan. I am saying we should put realistic surplus targets in place. The €1.6 million this year was a phenomenal achievement, considering how low the discretionary fund is at 4%; it is significantly higher in the Minister's county.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We need to conclude, Deputy.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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In advance of next week's meeting, I appeal to the Minister to put the thinking cap on, accept the fact that these surplus targets are not achievable. We do not want to tear up the plan, but as the Minister rightly pointed out, he stated his intentions and the fact that he was prepared to do it, it needs to be amended in the context of reviewing those surpluses downwards so that they are achievable.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We have already reviewed them in the context of the flexibility we have shown, but it is important to put on the record that Sligo County Council had been incurring revenue deficits for the years 2008 to 2014 resulting in a situation where the cumulative deficit now stands at just under €26 million, and long-term debt is in excess of €103 million. It is not a sustainable position. We need to fix it.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister's own county council owes €600 million.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We cannot get involved in that.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The management in Cork county and Cork city have to manage their own affairs.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Minister, we do not engage with the Deputy. We answer through the Chair.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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They are not independent republics.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We will not get involved in all of this.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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They manage their own affairs. The responsibility to manage the financial affairs of local government is primarily with the executive team in each local authority and last December there was an agreement. The Deputy does not want to accept that but there was an agreement between the local authority and my Department in terms of a pathway back to financial sustainability for Sligo.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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No. That was prescribed. The Minister knows it was prescribed.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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It was not prescribed. It was signed off-----

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Do not be provoked, Minister. Deputy MacSharry, will you control yourself?

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy should stop grandstanding.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is being provocative. He did not put any of that rubbish in his initial response-----

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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There will be no further response if we do not let the man get on with it. The Minister has the floor.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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What we have done is sat down on multiple occasions. The financial comptrollers in my Department have been negotiating with and talking to those in Sligo. That is where this needs to be resolved rather than the political grandstanding we are seeing.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I am talking facts. I am not grandstanding.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is not talking facts. It is just like the last time.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I am here on behalf of the people of Sligo. I am not here to represent officials in the Department who are answerable to nobody and who-----

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy MacSharry, the Minister is not able to answer.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The position is that we are working through what is a difficult situation. Sligo County Council is an exception to virtually all other counties. There is a financial plan in place for Donegal as well but outside of that, no other county is getting an extra €1 million to help it get out of a difficult financial hole.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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The surplus targets in Donegal that are being insisted on are several hundred thousand euro, not €3.6 million.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The matter is over. Thank you, Minister.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is a joke.