Dáil debates

Wednesday, 5 October 2016

Topical Issue Debate

Apprenticeship Programmes

4:20 pm

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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My question relates to the delivery of apprenticeships in a safe, practical way and the chaos that seems to be happening. A change came about due to the collapse in the construction industry and our economy, and many construction related apprenticeships ended abruptly. It is, therefore, good to see that SOLAS and the education and training boards, ETBs, are working together to offer apprenticeships as FÁS did in the past. From the debacle around JobBridge, we know the range of apprenticeships should be much greater and we should offer much more. We should offer something similar to the Germans rather than the approximately five apprenticeships that have been on offer to date.

It is regrettable that the ETBs and SOLAS did not use the opportunity of the downturn to reorganise the sector and the centres to ensure there were enough qualified instructors to deliver the courses they were offering. Decisions taken at the time of the collapse, since then and recently have many of the SOLAS and ETB centres in chaos. For example, in some centres there is no or very limited equipment related to the apprenticeship offered, so the course cannot be run. There are no instructors for some of the courses offered.

In Loughlinstown, the instructor walked off the job given that he could not get a contract that would allow him to deliver the six months' apprenticeship. He was offered only one month's contract. It is crazy. There is a shortage of instructors based on the fact that the ETB, SOLAS or whoever is paying are offering only short-term, rolling, four-week contracts for courses that last six months or longer. Maybe it is because they are happy to use retired instructors or tutors. In those cases, there seem to be three different sets of wages for instructors. Retired instructors are getting €36 per hour while those on four-week contracts are getting €23 per hour and those who have managed to get a one-year contract - imagine that - are on less attractive hourly rates of €20. What is the difference? There is no reason, in this day and age, that there should be a set of differences.

In the past, when the courses were run by FÁS, instructors had no issues with payment. Obviously, everybody wished to be paid more. Now, if one works in a centre and wants to help at another centre to cover somebody's holiday or sick leave, it is a bureaucratic quagmire. One is paid and taxed in a different way and the employer is different. It is a disincentive. If the instructor in Loughlinstown is sick, an instructor from Baldoyle who might have spare hours will not travel to Loughlinstown to provide cover. Can the Minister elaborate and explain why those differences exist, given where we have come from?

Photo of Richard BrutonRichard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for raising the very important issue of apprenticeships. We have made a serious commitment to expand the range of options. The position is not one of the chaos which the Deputy described but one of very rapid expansion in the number of people enrolling in traditional apprenticeships. During the past three years, including this year, there was an increase of more than 20% each year in the number of enrolments in apprenticeships and the forecast is for further increases in each of the next years of over 20% per year. We have already trebled compared to the lowest number of apprenticeships and we are planning to expand the numbers rapidly.

I will investigate the issues of concern to the Deputy regarding individual centres such as Loughlinstown or any others he wishes to bring to my attention. With the collapse in the number of apprenticeships, and as we seek to rebuild this national scheme, we cannot ensure every centre will always offer the range of options. Given that it is a national scheme, we must ensure that we build up capacity in an efficient way. This may require people not going to their nearest centre to complete their programme. This is in the context of major expansion.

As the Deputy recognises, we are moving to fill the gap which he rightly pointed out. In Germany, approximately 40 young people per 1,000 take up apprenticeships, whereas here it is approximately ten. We need to move to a much higher level. To do this, we propose to increase the number of apprentices from the current 27, which the Deputy mentioned, to 100 over the coming years. Some of them will be at a very high level, such as the one I recently launched at the Institute of Technology, Sligo, which will be a level 8 apprenticeship. We recognise that as we move to meet the challenges of a new economy which is emerging, and the challenges of Brexit, we need to rebuild this skill base and build it in new areas of technical expertise.

I will seek information for the Deputy on the issues regarding the contract terms of different instructors. The terms under which people are employed are, presumably, tied up with various negotiated agreements. Given that the Deputy did not mention the issue in his question, I do not have any briefing on it.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister for his reply. Hopefully, the answers will prove the point I made, having talked to a number of instructors from different centres to ensure I was not being over the top in my suggestions.

4 o’clock

I will move on to the second issue that I wish to raise. Is the Minister aware of cases of instructors delivering classes on trades in which they are not qualified? It is fine for an instructor to cover once in a while if, for example, someone else is sick or on leave, but the course is short. While the expansion in the number of courses being offered is welcome, I am aware of a carpentry instructor delivering a painting course. One might believe that this was fair enough, but the instructor also delivered an electrical course. Given the dangers of electrics, this was neither good nor safe. It was also unfair on the apprentices who were supposed to be learning in the centre.

Some centres were stripped of equipment in recent years. In Ballyfermot, three houses that had been built and used by apprentice carpenters to learn their trade were knocked down. The carpentry courses in Ballyfermot are due to restart next week or the week after, but half of the equipment is not in place as we speak and is unlikely to be in place when the courses start. The same is true of the painting and motor mechanics courses that are due to start. Although the apparent rush is welcome, this seems chaotic and the part of the job that ensures we have top grade apprentices is not being done right. Funding has not been spent on ensuring that the centres are fully equipped and instructors who can deliver these courses properly are there for the next group of apprentices.

4:30 pm

Photo of Richard BrutonRichard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I would be the first to recognise that we need to invest further in apprenticeships, not only the traditional ones, but also new ones. The Deputy must make an allowance for the fact that we are experiencing 20% growth per annum in the number of people participating in apprenticeships. This is a rapid expansion. While I would be disappointed to hear of some of the experiences to which the Deputy referred, that is in the context of us delivering for a higher intake.

In early 2015 and in conjunction with SOLAS, Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, formally extended a suite of professional award-type descriptors to carpentry, joinery, electrical, plumbing, metal fabrication and heavy vehicle mechanic apprenticeships and adopted standards regarding these. In September 2015, QQI validated new curricula for these trades, which have been implemented since April 2016. Accordingly, instructors' ability to deliver these curricula would have to be validated. If the Deputy wants to supply me with the details of cases in which it is believed that people without adequate qualifications are providing course instruction, I will investigate them.

Like other sectors, this sector's capacity to respond has been affected by the moratorium on recruitment. My Department is in discussion with the education and training boards, ETBs, regarding some elements of the moratorium in order to ensure that, as we meet the emerging skill needs in our economy, we are in a position to deal with any shortage that might arise in respect of tutors.

Sitting suspended at 4.05 p.m. and resumed at 4.30 p.m.