Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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9. To ask the Taoiseach if the Cabinet committee on infrastructure, environment and climate change has met. [18145/16]

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Cabinet committee on infrastructure, environment and climate change had its first meeting on Thursday, 7 July. It is an important committee which will focus on the implementation of the infrastructure commitments of A Programme for Partnership Government and the capital investment plan. It will also address the climate change challenge in terms of domestic policy and measures as well as in relation to our EU and international obligations.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Was the Cabinet's decision to adopt a commercial stimulus model as its ownership model for broadband and to leave our communications infrastructure in the hands of the private sector discussed by the Cabinet committee on infrastructure, environment and climate change? If it was, it reinforces what I think is a serious mistake because rural Ireland, as the Taoiseach knows, has been denied essential services which many urban areas take for granted.

That is especially the case for broadband. The former Minister for Communications, Alex White, told me in a response to a parliamentary question last December that there are still 15,000 households and premises in my constituency of Louth to be covered. He said that he hoped - this was six months ago - that 85% of the addresses in this State would have access to high-speed services by 2018, with all addresses covered by 2020. Now the Minister, Deputy Naughten, has said this will not happen until 2022, so I do not know how we can believe the Government on matters of timeframes. In the meantime, rural Ireland suffers.

Ba mhaith liom ceist amháin eile a ardú go gasta, the issue of climate change and climate justice. I am conscious that, in the case of those families, businesses and rural communities which suffered so badly from the flooding, roads and buildings are still not fixed and a total of 300 locations across the State are being assessed. These locations have been designated in the draft flood mapping, which has not been finalised. I ask the Taoiseach when the draft plan to provide flood defences will be published. May we get a report on the draft Shannon catchment flood risk assessment and management plan? Can the Taoiseach give us some sense of the work of the Shannon flood State agency co-ordination working group to tackle flooding along the Shannon?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy has raised a number of questions. The Minister of State, Deputy Canney, had meetings with the different groups about the response to flooding and what should be done, both in regard to the more long-term situations arising from the Shannon and other locations where serious money has been invested, and in regard to smaller areas where there has been flash flooding, such as in areas around south Galway where individual houses were flooded. I am sure he would be happy to give Deputy Adams a detailed account of the progress made in that regard.

The Government decided on 5 July on the ownership model for broadband. The next stage of the procurement process is the commencement of the detailed technical and financial negotiations with qualified bidders. This competitive dialogue phase is scheduled to commence in July and is anticipated to take at least ten to 12 weeks. I dealt with Deputy Howlin on this matter last week. This is not a situation like that of Eircom, where there was a nationally owned public system, but rather an extension of private facilities. Two models were considered. First, the commercial stimulus or, as I said, gap funding, where the private sector finances, designs, builds, owns and operates the network, with contractual obligations to the Department in respect of users and people. Second, the full concession, which means the private sector finances, designs, builds and operates the network, with contractual obligations to the Department and the asset being handed back to the State after 25 years. Therefore, while the Government recognises the long-term value of the State's owning any networks built, the advice received was that under a full concession model, the entire cost of the project, which is very significant, would be placed on the Government's balance sheet, with serious implications as a consequence for the available capital funding over the next five to six years.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Not if one has growth rates of 26%.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If that rate were real in terms of employment on the ground, perhaps. However, given that both models would deliver the same service and be governed by almost an identical contract, the concession model would have reduced the amount of money available to Government for other critical priorities, such as climate change, housing or health, over the next five to six years. Those technical negotiations are now ongoing and I hope that when the contract is awarded, it can then be rolled out by the task forces in the different local authority areas and bring the broadband situation to a head.

Did the Deputy ask me about another matter?

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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No. Is iad sin mo dhá cheist.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Last year's capital plan was widely viewed as just another example of the repackaging of existing plans which so defined the last Government. The Cabinet committee that is the subject matter of this discussion is reviewing this because we need urgent and ambitious plans to address our infrastructure. There was an announcement during the week that, for example, the Macroom bypass, the N28 and other road projects will now not be completed until 2022. I know there has been a tendency in recent times that pre-election promises tend to be two-election promises; in other words, they are never meant to be implemented in the immediate aftermath of the election but will come on stream after the following election. Is it envisaged that a revised capital investment plan be produced this year? There is a need for strategically important investment to include broadband, road infrastructure and other issues.

In terms of the climate change aspect of this committee, not enough has been made of the dramatic news in recent weeks about the hole in the ozone layer narrowing and closing. The great story there is that it illustrates corrective action works. One of the great difficulties for climate change has been a lack of acceptance of the phenomenon by key policy-makers and political leaders for too long and a sense that there is nothing we can do, that it is inevitable and so on. The example of what is happening to the ozone layer and the corrective action, legislatively and that parliaments and governments around the world have taken, has apparently had a very significant impact, according to scientists. There is a need for the Government to drive that message home in a national programme in terms of climate change so that we get the whole of society to embrace the idea of action to mitigate the impact of climate change.

This is already happening, as the Taoiseach is aware, globally, in Africa. We talk about migration in the context of the Syrian conflict but there will also be very significant migration out of Africa because of climate change. There therefore needs to be an understanding of this among our society. It was a missed opportunity by many governments - not just our own - and states and societies not to use that example of what is happening to the ozone layer as a catalyst for greater urgency and momentum behind climate change action.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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It is very appropriate that there is a presentation in the audiovisual room given by the officials involved in the national planning framework. It has been timed very well for us to start showing leadership on climate change. If we can lead with that planning framework, thinking long-term, and if we think to, say, 2030, 2040 or 2050, we know one thing for certain. We know very little about what will happen in 2050 but we know we have to completely decarbonise our entire energy system, transport system and heat system. The planning framework gives real opportunity to be the centre of our leadership. The timing is also good in that the planning framework could lead on or influence the review of the capital plan which, I understand, will be available early next year.

The Chief Whip was at a meeting with the Minister, Deputy Naughten, a number of weeks ago at which we talked about this issue. One thing we agreed on, I think, at that meeting was that, more than anything else, we need to ask our people for help rather than all the time having a top-down approach, choosing which town or city will progress, which town will get the money and which one will not. We need to start asking our people and our communities, as part of this planning process, what are their ideas as to how they can develop their home as a sustainable, prosperous place. It seems to me that the forces are aligning in a certain way that allows us to set and show leadership on climate, which I believe we have to do and which will benefit our country in every way.

I know this will come up later but there is an opportunity to include the issue of climate change in the citizens' convention so that at that top, central level we also consider how we lead on this. There is a sense of something positive but the forces are aligned for this committee to use those structural elements within Government to really change our approach to the climate issue.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Regarding the capital review, it is clear that we have very significant built-up infrastructural demand. There has been a significant change in ECB monetary policy from the period of Mr. Trichet to that of Mr. Draghi. Money is now available virtually at zero interest to states, which is all well and good if states could spend it.

On the fiscal side the structural rules are still very rigid. For example, the €400 million raised from the sale of Bord Gáis Energy, BGE, assets that was and still is available to the State to invest immediately in social housing cannot be deployed because it would break the fiscal rules on expenditure. Last week I talked to a number of colleagues across Europe and there was a great deal of support for considering amending the fiscal rules. The European Union needs to show that it is capable of dealing with crises. We cannot always learn in looking backwards. We must also learn in looking forwards at people's needs. We must show, in a prudent manner - God knows, I would not be arguing for profligacy - that we can use resources and the cheap money being made available by the European Central Bank to address real infrastructural deficiencies, including broadband provision, completion of the road network, schools, hospitals and health care systems. Will the Taoiseach take up the issue with colleagues to see if he can build, as we tried to do in the past, a consensus among member states to exempt infrastructural investment, to some degree, from the fiscal rules?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Regarding the Macroom bypass, the design has been completed, planning permission is in place and land has been purchased. The mid-term review will offer an opportunity to engage in some consideration of it. The Minister will have some extra funding available. The project has moved a long way and the Deputy knows the road very well.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It was meant to happen sooner. People said things before the general election-----

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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It is a pity it did not happen - zero - when the Deputy was Minister.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Twenty years.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I delivered what we said we would deliver.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Fianna Fáil included it in the capital programme; everybody should be happy.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Regarding Deputy Eamon Ryan's question about climate change, the other day I was speaking to the former President, Mrs. Mary Robinson. She had just returned from Ethiopia, where, she told me, a population of 80 million would increase to 200 million by 2050, 50% of whom would be under 17 years of age. They are extraordinary demographics. Climate change is challenging on the African continent. I take Deputy Eamon Ryan's point about asking people to help. The Chief Whip has informed me that she wanted an amendment in respect of the citizens' assembly to deal with the issue of climate action. I am happy about this and I am sure the citizens' assembly will be very happy to consider it.

I suppose Deputy Brendan Howlin was talking about EUROSTAT.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I was speaking about the fiscal rules which applied. Some countries asked for leeway in dealing with defence issues after the invasion of Ukraine. We need to have some leeway in providing infrastructure.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Money is available at very low rates. A couple of months ago I wrote to President Juncker about the matter and he sent back a very good reply, offering an opening. I spoke to the European Council about it and other countries have followed suit. I met one of the chief directors of EUROSTAT, which categorises these matters in a particular way, and I have put officials here in touch with her. I expect that we will make some headway. Social housing has been ruled out for PPPs in a number of countries by EUROSTAT categorisation. I am not seeking a change in the rules but a method of accommodating the fact that people should be able to spend their own money and borrow money cheaply to provide houses. That is one instance. I will send the Deputy and the other leaders a copy of Mr. Tusk's letter and the response. I hope we can make some headway on it, given that it applies not only in Ireland but also in a number of countries which are concerned about it.