Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Amendments Nos. 1 to 6, inclusive, in the names of Deputies Ruth Coppinger, Paul Murphy, Mick Barry, Richard Boyd Barrett, Gino Kenny and Bríd Smith have been ruled out of order. Amendment No. 7 has also been ruled out of order.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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May we raise a point of order about the ruling out of order of the amendments?

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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No, we cannot take points of order now.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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The amendments have been ruled out order on the basis that-----

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am sorry, I do not want to be awkward, but we cannot take a point of order and cannot get into a discussion about amendments that have been ruled out of order. They have been ruled out of order; therefore, we cannot have a discussion.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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I do not understand how they can be out of order on the basis that they are in conflict with the principle of the Bill when all they do is suggest the commission should discuss the issue of water poverty-----

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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If the Deputy does not understand it, he can come to my office and I will arrange for the appropriate staff and officials to brief him on why they have been ruled out of order.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Can you not tell the Dáil?

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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No, there is no such provision.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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You are going to push ahead and we will vote on the Bill and it will then be through; therefore, it will be too late. I have never seen such a narrow interpretation of the rules. In the letter Deputy Ruth Coppinger sent to you earlier, we accepted that some amendments had been ruled out on the basis that they would impose or increase a charge on Revenue. We do not agree with the Standing Order, but we accept that that is a fair or reasonable interpretation. However, on the others, I do not see, for example, how calling for a suspension of water metering is not relevant to the provisions of the Bill or is in conflict with the principle of the Bill; how adding that the committee should deal with the question of water poverty is not relevant to the Bill or in conflict with the principle of the Bill; how including the option to discuss the abolition of Irish Water-----

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am sorry, Deputy-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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We would simply be adding things for the committee to discuss. How does that possibly contradict the principle of Bill?

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We could talk about El Niño if we wanted to as just about anything can be relevant to the subject of water.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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No.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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However, the points Deputy Paul Murphy is raising are not relevant to the subject matter of the legislation.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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They are.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am afraid that they are not.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Can I read them?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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They also ruled out of order two amendments in my name for the same reason.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It is very unfair on the people for the Ceann Comhairle to rule the amendments out of order. That is exactly what they want to hear.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am acting in accordance with Standing Orders, by which I am bound-----

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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What about acting in accordance with decency towards those who want to hear this debate?

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am bound by Standing Orders.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Not by decency.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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If the Deputy does not like the Standing Orders, she can seek to change them.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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It is your interpretation of Standing Orders.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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My interpretation of them is correct. Will the Deputy, please, resume his seat?

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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The effect of your ruling is to give Fianna Fáil an excuse not to vote. I am not saying that was the intention in making your ruling, but it is the effect.

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Stop - give it up.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Excuse me. Please do not accuse me of political bias.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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I am not accusing you of bias.

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is. He has it out now. He is happy.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will Deputy Paul Murphy, please, resume his seat?

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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I am not accusing you of bias. We need an explanation as to why these things, including Deputy Jan O'Sullivan's amendments-----

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is not provided for in Standing Orders that Members can interrogate the Chair or that-----

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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It is unprecedented that so many amendments have been ruled out of order.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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No. Will the Deputy, please, resume her seat? We will proceed with those matters that are in order.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I have to say this is very unlike you. You are usually flexible and pretty decent, particularly on something that is so crucial to the Dáil.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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However, you are being a little dictatorial. It is not fair to say: "Shut up; we cannot debate this and I do not have to explain myself."

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I have not told anyone that. I have not used that phraseology. We must stick to Standing Orders which I did not write. They have been in place for quite a while. The House has not changed them and until such time as it changes them, I will implement them. That is it. Do you or do you not want to speak about-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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It is not a question of implementation but of interpretation.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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In order to be helpful, could we suspend the sitting for ten minutes to have somebody from the Ceann Comhairle's office explain this to us?

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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No.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Seriously, we are making a genuine point that we do not understand the interpretation of Standing Orders. We accept that some amendments have been ruled out on the basis that they would impose a charge on the State and that this is in compliance with Standing Orders. We do not understand how some of the others have been ruled out of order. We do not understand that interpretation of Standing Orders.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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They were ruled out of order on Committee Stage.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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No, these are extra amendments. They relate effectively to the terms of reference of the committee and what it would deal with. We brought them forward after Committee Stage. We understand the reason amendments were ruled out of order on Committee Stage, but we have other ones now and do not understand the reason they have been ruled out of order. I think it is reasonable that we receive an explanation. The same applies to Deputy Jan O'Sullivan's amendments.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is talking about amendments Nos. 11 to 15, inclusive.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Amendments Nos. 11 to 15, inclusive, 20 and 22.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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To be honest, I do not mind one way or the other, but we are straying into dangerous territory. When we consider legislation in this House, the Bills Office makes a ruling on whether amendments are in order. If we were to start undoing those rulings on the floor of the House, we-----

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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That is ridiculous.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Why is it ridiculous?

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Because these things should be decided on the floor of the House, not by some invisible body in the Bills Office which is not accountable or democratic. It is unbelievable the Minister would say that.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The decision on these matters will be made on the floor of the House.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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An unelected civil servant is making them and the House has no say.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is not true. The Deputy should not make reflections on the staff of the Houses.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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There is obviously an invisible hand from the Government which is giving a political direction to the unelected civil servant.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy knows that is not true.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Obviously, it is. The Minister must think the people are completely naive that he will not accept, for example, that water metering which is linked with Irish Water-----

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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It has nothing to do with me.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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-----can be a subject for the committee to discuss.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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That has nothing to do with me.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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It was decided by some unelected civil servant. The Minister has obviously given some direction to exclude a discussion about this issue.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Deputy, please, resume her seat? It is not a matter for the Minister to decide. He has no role, good, bad or indifferent, in deciding what amendment is or is not in order. Recommendations are made and considered. In this instance, in accordance with Standing Orders which are well established in the House, the amendments have been ruled out of order. It is not open to us to revisit the matter. Therefore, we will get on with the debate.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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There is somebody out of order.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We will get on with the debate.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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This is the most restrictive interpretation I have ever seen. How is it possibly out of order for us to propose------

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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If your purpose is to deliberately frustrate the work-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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No, we want to debate this.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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If your purpose is to deliberately frustrate the work of the House then I-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Genuinely, we want to debate these amendments which are about the expert-----

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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You want to suspend the Dáil.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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No, not at all. We do not want to, genuinely. We want the expert committee to be able to look at the question of water poverty.

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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You will keep going anyway.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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We want the expert committee to be able to look at the issue of the suspension of water charges and water metering. We want the expert committee to be able to look at the question of refunds.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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You raised it on Second Stage.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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That is all completely-----

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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You should have entered Government negotiations and tried to form a Government.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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-----fair enough and in line with the idea that we have-----

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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You sat on your hands long enough.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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The essence of the Bill is suspension of water charges and establishing a committee to look into it. That is the essence of the Bill. All that amendments Nos. 11 to 15, inclusive, are doing is stating these are things the committee should also look at, which are clearly part of the process. Amendments Nos. 20 and 22 relate to the suspension of water metering, which is not separate to the purpose of the Bill. It clearly relates to the imposition of water charges. If water meters go hand in hand with this I do not understand how it is separate. I understand the Government may oppose it and that is fine, and I understand Fianna Fáil may oppose it and that is fine, but I do not understand why we cannot debate it and vote on it.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Let us have a debate.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Well you cannot debate it now because it is not in order.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Can I ask a question, as somebody who is brand new to all of these procedures?

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Yes.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Bills Office makes a recommendation on what gets ruled in and ruled out, but the Ceann Comhairle either accepts or rejects these recommendations. It is correct?

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Exactly.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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We are appealing to the Ceann Comhairle's better nature to explain to us why he accepted the recommendations to rule out discussion on water metering and the question of water poverty. Why did you accept this? This is all we are asking. We are not asking you to change your mind, we are asking you for an explanation.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am not going to come in here, day in day out, and give to Deputy Smith or any other Deputy an explanation as to why I make a decision in respect of a particular question.

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Hear, hear.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Why not?

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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There are no such provisions. It has never been the case-----

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Have we ever asked this before?

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Resume your seat for a second.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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No, we have not.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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No Ceann Comhairle that I know of in the past has had to come in here and explain why he or she, as the case may be, made a particular ruling. I made the ruling based on the information provided to me and based on my understanding of the amendment as proposed. The bottom line is it is out of order. If the Deputies want to raise these matters in some other way then I suggest they find some other way, but at this point I want to get on with the legislation. We have been having this debate for ten minutes. We can have it for another half hour but we will not-----

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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During which time the Ceann Comhairle could have explained to us-----

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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-----arrive at any different conclusion than the one we were at at the time we started.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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What is being asked here is not unreasonable and-----

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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So can we please-----

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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During which time the Ceann Comhairle could have explained to us why these crucial issues for the vast majority of the population were ruled out of order. If they were insignificant for the people out there, the people who elected us, then I would not be asking this. These are very significant issues for many people who were elected to the Dáil.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can we get on with an amendment No. 8 please?

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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If half this side of the House was to be honest about it, it is significant for them also.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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I move amendment No. 8:

In page 4, line 28, to delete "before, on or".

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can we get on with an amendment No. 8 please? Does anyone want to speak to amendment No. 8?

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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I will speak to amendments Nos. 8 and 9. It is very unfortunate these are the only amendments we are able to debate and that such a restrictive interpretation has been put on Standing Orders. Amendments Nos. 8 and 9, which are linked, propose that the membership of the so-called expert commission, so-called neutral commission, would be subject to a vote in the House. This is absolutely and perfectly reasonable. Why does the Government not want to have a vote on it in the House? I presume the Minister will speak to the amendment so let us see. I think it is precisely because the purpose of the exercise was explained by Joe O'Toole, that people voted a certain way and Leinster House is not prepared to grasp that particular nettle, so we have to find a solution that will have enough sugar on it to make the medicine go down easily. The purpose is a political exercise to try to come back and reimpose the question of water charges as well as maintaining Irish Water.

The problem for Joe O'Toole, of course, was that he gave the game away. That was the problem and why he had to go. Ironically, I am sure the Minister has seen the interview Joe O'Toole gave The Irish Timeson Saturday. He gave the game away again, as he was asked whether the Minister for housing, planning and local government, Deputy Simon Coveney, knew of his views in advance. Joe O'Toole said he told him what they were and that the Minister showed great confidence in him. I would say the Minister did. Did he tell the Minister that his view was that the purpose of the commission was a political exercise to put sugar on it to make sure the medicine goes down easily? The game was given away yet again. The commission is rigged in my opinion. It has been set up to deliver a certain outcome, which is to recommend a continuation of domestic water charges. It is a complete sham.

Let us look at the membership of the committee. Obviously, we have seen that Joe O'Toole has been replaced by Kevin Duffy. So what? The Minister could replace him with anyone in the world. He could replace him with Kofi Annan and it would not change the essence of it.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The commission and the committee are two different things, so perhaps the Deputy might just take a look at what we are proposing to do before speaking on the amendment.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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So the commission is not referenced in the Bill. That was not clear obviously. The commission itself is not referenced in the Bill.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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To be helpful to the House, both of the amendments are with regard to the Oireachtas committee we are proposing to establish.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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They are related to the committee referred to in the Bill.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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There is no mention of the commission in either of the-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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In that case there is no mention whatsoever of the commission in the Bill. The commission has just been set up without reference to the House.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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In which case, evidently, there should be a vote on it.

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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No, there was an agreement between two parties.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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It was an agreement between-----

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, it was, to facilitate the formation of a Government to allow you to stay as long as you have stayed, or you would have been out on your ear along with the rest of us.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Right, it is all a deal between Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil. Thank you very much.

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, to facilitate the formation of the Government-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Right. Members-----

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----which suspended water charges and put a plaster in place to deal with the issue which is more than you will ever do.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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It is very useful-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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One speaker only please. Please stick to the amendment.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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It is very useful if Deputy Cowen could be wound up and continue to give the game away.

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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You can wind me up all you like.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Do not be inspired by being wound up.

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am ready and willing.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The reality is that they are playing a dirty game with Fine Gael to keep water charges going.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Cowen should not allow himself to be led along like that. Deputy Murphy should concentrate on the amendment and speak to the amendment. Deputies behind Deputy Murphy want to speak as well, as do two or three others on the other side of the House.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I wonder whether there is a Standing Order about getting too close to the bone. What Standing Order is that?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Proceed, please.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Let me speak about some of the other members of the commission. We wondered why in the Bill it is referred to as a committee rather than a commission, but we presumed it was a reference to the expert commission. The fact it is not given any democratic legitimacy whatsoever-----

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy, with respect, you did not assume that.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We did.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We had a detailed conversation on Committee Stage on what exactly is being proposed. Perhaps Deputy Murphy does not understand the difference between the commission and the committee but others in his group do.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The key question people will be asking, which is the point of our amendment, is why there is not a reference to the Dáil and why the Dáil does not get a vote on the members of the committee and why we have a committee set up.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am speaking to the amendment.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Proceed.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Let us look at some of the members of the commission.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to be fair to everybody. I wanted to make something clear.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Here we go.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy must speak to the amendment.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You cannot go around the countryside and give a history lesson-----

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is on the amendment.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----a geography lesson and a genealogy lesson. He cannot do all of those things.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are in Kildare Street and not around the countryside.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know you are a nice guy and I am very fond of you, but not that fond of you so keep to the amendment.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You only lost by one vote.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One vote is enough.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have Dr. Xavier Leflaive from the OECD, an agency that has consistently pushed an agenda of user fees. He has written that water pricing can be used to signal scarcity and to create incentives for efficient water use in all sectors, and that social consequences are best addressed through well-designed tariffs and other targeted measures.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sorry Deputy-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is the Dáil. It is a platform.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry Deputy. Wait a second-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are talking about the amendments here.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can I just intervene-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----to your advantage.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Thank you.

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a committee not a commission.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is unbelievable the way there is constant interruption from the so-called Opposition.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It would be much less stressful on you to just concentrate on the amendment and speak to the amendment.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is what I am speaking about. That is no problem.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are three more speakers behind you who wish to speak, and lots more speakers on the other side of the House.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is lots of time to debate this tonight.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You must stick to the amendment. You cannot go around the country-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not going around the country.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is not the scenic tour.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He has gone to Europe now.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please stick to the amendment. You know yourself what you have to do.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The amendment is on the commission.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Another is Peter Peacock, who favours charges and boasts that consumer forums can help lower prices.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Acting Chairman-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am dealing with it.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Another is Ms Sarah Hendry, who is an academic lawyer who teaches a module on how price setting can achieve social and economic objectives. Another is Gritta Nottelman, a strategy consultant with Waternet, a Dutch water company that charges for tap water and the discharge of wastewater. Another is Bill Emery, a former director of Ofwat, the British regulatory authority that presided over a privatised water system.

The essence of the amendment, and it is fair enough that the Bill refers to the committee although I do not personally think that was clear, is that the expert commission should be subject to a vote in the Oireachtas and in the Dáil. It is absolutely clear. The fact this is set up and we are presented with what is a sham committee with a rigged outcome, loaded with people who are connected to water privatisation, whether academically or through industry or regulatory capacity-----

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Acting Chairman-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One second. I will deal with this now.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The fact that it is set up in advance of any discussion here and of the Bill is a fundamental democratic deficit.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

May I respond?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Amendments Nos. 8 and 9 are being discussed together.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

May I respond?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The next speaker is Deputy Bríd Smith.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Before the Minister responds-----

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

May I make an intervention?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Before the Minister responds, I wish to add my tuppence ha'penny worth to what is a bit of a sham debate. Clearly, what was intended was to table an amendment that would allow the members of the commission to be elected by this House-----

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was not.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----albeit that if we voted against it, we would lose-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Just a second.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will not repeat their names. I will not say anything about them but I do want to say-----

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Acting Chairman, I would like to say something.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know. Minister, give me a second, please. Let me deal with this-----

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, sorry, I am speaking.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No. There are to be no exchanges other than through the Chair.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Through the Chair-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To which amendment is the Deputy speaking now?

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Amendment No. 9.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Could the Deputy read that one out for me, please?

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It states: "In page 4, lines 29 and 30, to delete “by either House of the Oireachtas or by both Houses of the Oireachtas” and substitute “whose composition and membership shall be approved by a vote in Dáil Éireann”."

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Could I clarify-----

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I just want-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will call on the Minister after this to clarify. It might be of some benefit, when the Deputy has spoken-----

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When I have spoken, I would love the Minister to clarify-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy can speak again.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Acting Chairman, may we clarify the matter now?

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On a point of order.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Jesus.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sorry, we cannot have everybody speak. I ask Deputy Smith to proceed and I will then call on the Minister to respond, which might be helpful.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It might be helpful but I will tell the Minister that whatever he says and whatever anyone else in this House says, at this stage, it will be clear to the public that this is a complete set-up to ignore the real issues behind the big debacle of the water charges and to ignore the real issues that got more than 90 Deputies elected to this House. The issues are those that were covered by Deputy Murphy and that were ruled out of order, namely, the issues of water poverty and water metering and the composition of the commission. We are not going to debate the issues that people want to hear about-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If they are not part of the amendment, the Deputy cannot-----

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is a set-up and all we are doing is obfuscating and arguing about the difference between a committee and a commission. Most people would not even know the difference between them anyway. The Acting Chairman is trying to stage-manage something which seeks to hoodwink the public but they will not be fooled.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not trying to do anything.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Instead, the public will be back out marching on 17 September against this awful position-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy, just a second, please.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----that the Minister has put them in-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This has nothing to do with the amendment at all. Anyway-----

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What the Acting Chairman is doing in this Dáil is completely wrong.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not wish to do anything. I am trying to follow the orders as best I can and what I am saying to the Deputy-----

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What the Acting Chairman's orders are doing and the way in which he and the previous Chair followed them-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy is beginning to wander now. Deputy Paul Murphy wandered around on a scenic tour of the countryside and Deputy Smith is heading that direction also.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am heading in the direction of making an argument-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please do not go there now.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not heading in the direction of the-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will call on the Minister for a brief response-----

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Acting Chairman is shutting down any discussion-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, I am not shutting down any discussion.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is very clear to everybody. The discussion is shut down. He is pretending to be reasonable but he is not.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy will have all the time in the world to respond to what the Minister has to say by way of clarification. Many Deputies want to speak and we will call on them to do so.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There cannot be that many; the place is almost empty.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I wish to clarify a number of matters. First, we are on Report and Final Stages of this short piece of legislation. There was an opportunity to debate many of the issues that Deputies Murphy, Coppinger and Smith raised on Second Stage. That is why we had a Second Stage. There was a further discussion on Committee Stage during which a number of these issues were raised, so the suggestion that this issue has not been debated and discussed is nonsense. It has been debated and discussed. Questions have been submitted to me also regarding the suspension of metering, to which I gave very clear answers, but that is not what is in the legislation that we are talking about.

Second, since the commission has been raised, I reiterate for the benefit of the House that we are setting aside a nine-month period during which charging will be suspended and we will essentially freeze the process to create a space for work to be done on how we proceed. In the first five months of that nine-month period, an expert commission will be set up, which is not dealt with in the legislation but was agreed to in terms of the setting up of that commission. That commission will make recommendations and report-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Where was it agreed?

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will then have an Oireachtas committee set up-----

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Where was it agreed?

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----which is what both of these amendments refer to. The committee will be set up in the normal way in the House. It will not be chosen by the Government alone. It will be fully representative of this House and will be set up in the normal way. That committee will consider the recommendations of the commission but will make its own recommendations and its own judgment on what the appropriate way forward is. We have not specified the terms of reference per sefor everything and all the work that the committee of the House will do.

In regard to the two amendments that are in order, the first one, amendment No. 8, tabled by the Anti-Austerity Alliance and People Before Profit, proposes to prevent the establishment of an Oireachtas committee tasked with making recommendations on the funding of water services provided to dwellings from being established until after the enactment of the Water Services (Amendment) Bill 2016. We are, therefore, not talking about the commission here. We are talking about-----

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Of course, the Minister is not.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----the setting up of an Oireachtas committee, which-----

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He does not want to talk about the commission.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hang on now, Deputy.

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He cannot talk about the commission.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have spoken about the commission on many occasions.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Not in this House.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have had an opportunity to debate it but we are debating legislation here which does not provide specifically for that commission and the Deputy knows it.

Amendment No. 9, again tabled by the Anti-Austerity Alliance-People Before Profit, proposes to restrict approval of the membership and the composition of the proposed Oireachtas committee tasked with making recommendations on the funding of water services provided to dwellings to Dáil Éireann and not to either House or both Houses of the Oireachtas. In other words, it seeks to restrict the membership of that committee solely to members of Dáil Éireann and not Seanad Éireann. That is what is being proposed here, which I fundamentally disagree with. I disagree with both amendments, actually. We should not be deciding now when or how that Oireachtas committee is set up. There is plenty of time for that-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister could accept amendment No. 8.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----over the next five months, so can we please deal with the issues-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are dealing with it.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----that these two amendments deal with. The first amendment-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To be fair to me, I will deal with those. That is what I am doing. We will follow on on that basis.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In regard to amendment No. 8, what is being proposed here is that the committee could not be set up before the enactment of the Bill. It is up to the House how and when to set that committee up and the composition of it. There is plenty of time to do that and it is catered for in the legislation by referring to a committee set up by the Houses of the Oireachtas. Amendment No. 8 is, therefore, not necessary. That committee, as I said, has plenty of time to be set up and will be representative of the Oireachtas.

In regard to amendment No. 9, I do not understand why the Deputies want to prevent Senators from being on that Oireachtas committee.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will explain to the Minister now.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This legislation will be considered and passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas. A committee will look into all of the issues around water and all of the controversy and politics as well as what we are required to do under the obligations we have both nationally and internationally and all that complexity. If we are going to make decisions that have credibility, they need to have credibility across both Houses and I do not see why the Deputies would want to exclude the Seanad from that process.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They need to have credibility with the people.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I think we are more than able to set up a committee that represents both Houses of the Oireachtas to be able to make an informed choice.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to include everybody. I do not want one group to monopolise the whole debate. I want Deputies to stick to the amendments. That is strictly in accordance with the rules of the House and that is to be fair to everybody because all the other Deputies are entitled to say their few words as well. After a time-----

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Acting Chairman, may I raise something-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, the Deputy is listed to speak as well.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We tabled the amendments.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know. I am aware of that. The person who-----

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Acting Chairman talks about monopolising the debate. Anyone else was perfectly free to table amendments-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Let me explain that to the Deputy. Everybody is entitled to speak.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would like to speak on my amendment and so would the others who bothered putting them-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy can speak on the amendment.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was a bizarre statement to make.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Listen for a second, Deputy.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Any Deputy could table an amendment.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The person who moves the amendment can speak three times; every other person can speak twice.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The second time is strictly time limited. This will be applied.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is grand but let us speak.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Wait a second. If the intention is to frustrate the rules of the House-----

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a cacophony of interruptions every time we speak.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Likewise.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Through the Chair, please. I will enforce the rules in rapid fashion unless there is some compliance with the rules. I call Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett. Stick to the amendments, please.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On a point of order, the Acting Chairman outlined that apart from the proposer of an amendment, everybody else may speak twice. Is that right?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is right.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How long is allowed for the first intervention?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The first intervention is subject to the interpretation of the Chair.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is no limit then.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You cannot speak forever. I have been ejected from the House for attempting to speak for too long on the first intervention.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is there a limit?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is a limit. You cannot go on forever, repeat or stonewall.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Where in Standing Orders is the time limit specified?

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One cannot stray from the amendment.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is not Second Stage. I am sorry, Deputy, resume your seat for a second. You are a nice guy and I am very fond of you but you are going to have to sit down for a moment while I tell you-----

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You said you were going to apply the rules. Confirm to the House that there is no time limit on the first intervention. Otherwise, you are abusing your position.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please, resume your seat. Your intention is to frustrate the House. I thought you were going to be co-operative and assist the Chair in the running of the House.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy asked how long he could speak for.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Everybody will get an opportunity to speak and, within reason, if everybody sticks to the amendments, I will not intervene. However, if Deputies use the amendments as a vehicle to frustrate the House and to do a filibuster that would be more appropriate to a Second Stage debate with no time limits, I will intervene. I appeal to the Deputy to please proceed in accordance with the orders of the House. Have you completed your first intervention?

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, I have not.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thought you had.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was a point of order.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are no more points of order. You have had my order.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, I asked a question and the Acting Chairman did not answer it.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I did answer it.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Under Standing Orders, is there a time limit on the first intervention?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There could be.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is not.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Officially-----

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Somebody in the Clerk's office should inform the Acting Chairman.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is no time limit but if you depart from the subject matter of the debate, there is a time limit.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Thank you. There is no time limit. That is all the Acting Chairman had to say.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Unless you depart from the subject matter of the amendment.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I hope the same warnings will go to all speakers in advance of their speeches.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They will.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Of course, they will not. It is absolute abuse.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please proceed to amendment No. 8 or amendment No. 9, whichever you like, or both together.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The principle behind our amendments is to vindicate the idea of democracy and the sovereignty of the House as the directly elected Chamber representing the people of the country. This is the purpose of these amendments. It is very clear. It does not, as the Minister suggested, exclude Senators. It says the composition of the committee should be decided by the Dáil. This is in line with an argument which the Minister fully understands and which he should not try to misrepresent, namely, that we believe the House is mandated on the question of water charges and it is an abuse of democracy for anybody other than the directly elected representatives of the House to decide how the issue of water charges is dealt with.

We think there is a clear, democratic mandate and that the Minister is trying to worm his way out of it with Fianna Fáil. We do not accept that expert groups or committees, established to make recommendations to the House, should be established by any other body than the House. This is what democracy means. It is clear that the Minister and Fianna Fáil do not like democracy when it does not suit them. With these amendments, we are trying to rectify an abuse of the democratic principle. Our amendments do not specify that the House cannot select Senators. The House can choose whomever it wants to put on commissions or committees. This is what we are arguing and the Minister knows damn well it is what we are arguing.

We do not think it is acceptable that the Minister is establishing a process that will, over time, undermine the clear and unequivocal mandate that was given to the House because of a side deal he happens to have done with Fianna Fáil. The Minister should respond to this point. The public needs to know how the game is played. It should not be a game but it is a game. When the Government cannot win a matter in open public debate, it rigs the game by way of side deals between different political parties.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry but there is nothing in the amendment that talks about rigging the game.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Stop interrupting.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, it does not.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is right. It is not in the amendment.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The amendment is designed to prevent the rigging of the game.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Again, I ask the Deputy to please adhere to the amendments.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am. I am telling you that the purpose of the amendment is to prevent the rigging of the game. The legislation the Government has proposed is open to the game being rigged. We are attempting to insert an amendment that would prevent the game being rigged. It is entirely relevant to the purpose of the legislation unless the Government wants to tell us it would not be worried about the game being rigged. However, I am sure, in the new political landscape, the Government would be as concerned as we are about the possibility of games being rigged. As we all know, games have been rigged for a long time on many issues. Given that it would be deviating from the Bill to enumerate them, I will not.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Good. That is a relief.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Suffice it to say that many games have been rigged in the past with devastating cost to ordinary citizens. We are asking, as part of the new politics, that this House decides in an open and transparent way. There is no need for a commission at all. We would like it to be dealt with by the House, full stop.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is going to be.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister has set his face against this and has decided to establish a commission. We at least want the House to have a democratic say in how all of it is done.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Bill has nothing to do with this, Acting Chairman.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister does not want it because he does not believe in democracy or he wants to undermine a democratic decision.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy is mixing up the commission and the committee.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I also speak as a representative of the people, concerned with democracy and my duty as a public representative to represent the people. I will speak directly to the two amendments that deal with the establishment of the committee. On Committee Stage last week, an amendment was passed at the instigation of Fianna Fáil. Deputy Barry Cowen is being very quiet and has not proposed any amendments on Report Stage because he got his amendment through Committee Stage, given that the Government tabled a similar amendment. The amendment allowed for an extension of the time taken by the committee and the commission beyond the nine months. As a publicly elected person in the Chamber, I believe we are being asked to finalise the Bill today without the kind of information we need for the taxpayers who will have to pay if infringement charges are imposed and if those infringement charges are increased by the provision in the legislation to extend the time period beyond nine months.

Last week, the Minister went to Brussels and met Commissioner Karmenu Vella. We do not know the consequences of the meeting. We do not know if there will be infringement charges and what they will be. We do not know if they are likely to increase due to amendments to the Bill. We should not make such a decision in the absence of this information. The Minister was very helpful on Committee Stage last week and spoke about the fact that he was going to meet the Commissioner. However, since then, we have received no information about what happened. While it goes against the grain for the Minister, he must do it given that he is in a minority Government. It is being done at the instigation of Fianna Fáil, the very party which decided we were to have water charges in the first place, back in 2010 under the river basin management plan to which the Fianna Fáil Government agreed.

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is where we differ.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The troika agreement signed by the Fianna Fáil Government-----

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was it implemented?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----in December 2010 states, "In advance of the introduction of water charges ... [t]he government will have undertaken an independent assessment of transfer of responsibility for water services provision from local authorities to a water utility, and prepare proposals for implementation, as appropriate with a view to start charging in 2012/2013."

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did it do it?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is a complete farce on behalf of the Fianna Fáil Party-----

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who did it?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----in looking for a fig leaf to hide behind, knowing very well all it is doing is kicking the can down the road and forcing the Government to do that. We are in this highly farcical situation where certain Members are playing their own game. Fianna Fáil has its own nice, quiet game to play, where the Government implements what it wants, but the public, who will be paying the infringement charges, will have no information as to what the Commissioner said to the Minister last week.

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are paying for it as it is. General taxation is paying for it.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have no information on what are the consequences of the amendment made in the committee last week in respect of the possible extension of the nine months-----

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In the event of it being required.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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As public representatives, we have a responsibility to the public, who want to see their taxes used on things such as building houses and schools and providing for people in hospitals. We have a total absence of information as to the consequences of this legislation but we are being asked to vote on it today. That is unacceptable. Will the Minister clarify exactly what are the consequences of bringing in this legislation for the people?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The next speaker on my list is Deputy Mick Barry but he is not here.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He is here.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is he here?

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How can he be the next speaker?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He is here. Deputy Mick Barry, here you go. Now is your chance.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is grand.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He is passing. The next speaker is Deputy Alan Kelly.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am delighted to be able to speak on this amendment relating to the committee. This is a unique moment because, as I stand here, I agree with Deputy Paul Murphy on this issue. This is a unique moment.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

An historic one. Put it on the record.

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Kelly is laughing again.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The eureka moment is that he used a phrase I was going to use, which is that the setting up of this committee is a sham. I am coming at it from a totally different perspective but it is a sham. It is a sham because-----

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It might do what Deputy Alan Kelly would not do.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The committee the Deputy refers to-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If the Minister will listen for a change, instead of interrupting all the time-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There will be only one speaker.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The reason this committee is a sham is because it has a predetermined outcome. When the Minister unveils to the House his conversation with Commissioner Vella last Friday, we will all know that to be a fact. The Commissioner, with whom I have discussed this issue, will have made it known only too well to the Minister that the consequence of getting rid of or suspending water charges is that a pilot notification will be sent to the Government and we will have to foot fines of a scale that we have not seen before. Like my colleague-----

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a pretty dangerous thing to misrepresent the Commissioner.

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It sure is.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not misrepresenting the Commissioner.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy is.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not misrepresenting anything.

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Kelly has a predetermined opinion about everything and it is never the right one.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

All Members will have an opportunity to speak and the Minister will have an opportunity to reply. The Deputy to continue.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I say to the Minister that is what I predict will happen.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not what the Deputy said.

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He is putting words in the Commissioner's mouth now.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One second-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry, Deputy, but one speaker, please. I know you are all very enthusiastic and all that kind of thing but you cannot all speak together, much as I would like to allow it.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They can but they may not be allowed.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Kelly, to proceed.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To clarify-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Stick to the amendment.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will. To be clear, so the Minister cannot accuse me of misrepresenting anyone, given the discussions with Europe, I believe we will be left in a situation where this committee will have a predetermined outcome based on the advice the Minister has been given. I am sure the Attorney General has given him advice on the issue. I am sure he has asked her for it. I asked her for it before I left, so I am sure she gave the Minister the advice I asked for. If not, the Minister may request it. Based on that and the replies the Commissioner has given to various MEPs in the recent past and, dare I say it, once the Minister outlines to us the discussions he had last week, it will be clear that this situation is a sham. There is a predetermined outcome, because the equation here is very simple. I have stated it on numerous occasions. Either the committee accepts that we put the country into the risky situation of having massive fines imposed on us on a daily basis, similar to other countries-----

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not agree.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----or we have some form of affordable water charges based on the polluter pays principle. I know the Minister agrees with that principle.

The consequences of what we have done here means that-----

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy is straying from the amendment.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----this is the capacity of this committee to discuss the funding implications for Irish Water. Will the committee also discuss the Exchequer payments that will have to go to Irish Water-----

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are already going to it.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----and the capital funding of Irish Water as a consequence of the action of suspending water charges?

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy provided for the next five years in the last Government.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the committee discuss, or will the Government allow it to discuss, where the funding will come from? Will it be taken from schools, health care-----

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You provided for it for the past five years.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

From the 26%-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would love to allow everyone to speak together but it cannot happen. I am sorry-----

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He was in government himself.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry, Deputies, but one speaker at a time.

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He is admitting now that he did not know what he was doing.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One second. I want to impart a certain amount of-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy, please do not engage in exchanges because it tends to lead to disorder.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Fair enough. I take the Acting Chairman's advice.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would not like disorder to prevail and I know Deputy Kelly would not like it to prevail. I, therefore, ask him to try to stick to the amendment as much as possible to ensure that others do not take the wrong cue.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Fine.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Less is more.

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I agree.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

With the setting up of this committee and the process the Minister went through on the suspension of water charges, the Minister is in a unique situation, unfortunately, given the political arithmetic in which he has found himself in that the legislation he is proposing is questionable under European law. I consider the Minister to be in an unenviable situation. I do not think it is personally his fault because I know his beliefs on this matter. However, this legislation is being proposed despite what the Commission has said and the replies of Commissioner Vella to various MEPs. These replies were quite clear and distinctive and replies from Commissioners are not always distinctive. He was very clear and absolute in his opinion. We now have a situation where this committee will be left in a scenario that has a predetermined outcome given the legal situation and we have a Minister putting forward this legislation. I would like him to verify that he knows absolutely and unquestionably that it is legal under European law, that he has got advice from the Attorney General-----

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We deal with Irish law here.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Wait a second. I will get to Irish law.

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is Irish law.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have to adhere to European law as well, Deputy.

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We do not set European laws in here.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have to adhere-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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One speaker, please.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Actually, European law takes precedence, as Deputy Cowen knows.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It is very much subject to-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Kelly, do not encourage interruptions.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I want the Minister to absolutely guarantee-----

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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One would think he would have voted against it on Second Stage-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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-----that this committee-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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No-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am coming to Deputy Cowen-----

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Why did the Deputy not vote against it?

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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-----is acting based on, and I genuinely request this of the Minister, the legal advice he has received under both national and EU law.

I assume the Commission will be in touch with the Minister soon to outline its view on the suspension of water charges.

We are challenged in the scenario in this House to face down the reality, given the make-up of the Dáil, which I respect, as that is the democratic process. However, with respect to the outcome of the committee that will be in place-----

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The commission.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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-----the equation it will have to deliver is as follows. On one side we will be faced with very hefty fines and a huge ongoing legal debate for years with the European Union and, on the other, with introducing reasonable and affordable water charges. For that to happen, given the make-up of the House and the utterances of Fianna Fáil, particularly Deputy Barry Cowen who has brought us to this scenario through his wild pursuit-----

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is the Deputy's privilege.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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One speaker at a time, please.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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No. The timeline and duration of this Dáil will really be in Deputy Barry Cowen's hands once the committee reports back because given the arithmetic, its report will not be able to pass through the House without his support and that of Fianna Fáil. Therefore, I want to know that he will support the outcome, given the democratic process which he has pursued.

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy already knows the outcome, nine months beforehand.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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No, I do not.

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy knows everything else.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Please allow Deputy Alan Kelly to conclude, without interruption.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Seeing that Deputy Barry Cowen wants to pursue this issue, I am sure he will be willing to accept the outcome of the committee's deliberations.

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I will accept the outcome in this House.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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If the Deputy does so, given the fact that, as I have shown, it is a predetermined outcome-----

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy still thinks he is the boss.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am concluding.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Good.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We now know that that is the scenario. It will be the biggest political climbdown in Deputy Barry Cowen's political career should he do it.

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It will hardly surpass anything the Deputy has done.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I look forward to that day when the Deputy has to make that decision.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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We are on Report Stage.

Barry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Alan Kelly is the king of climbdowns and U-turns.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I call Deputy Eoin Ó Broin who will be followed by Deputy Ruth Coppinger. We will then see who turns up next.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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We are moving to the two-minute slots.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We are in round 2 then.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Please allow Deputy Eoin Ó Brion to proceed, without interruption, please. We are working slowly.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I support the spirit of amendments Nos. 8 and 9 and will explain my reason for so doing. As everybody is aware, the purpose of the Bill is to suspend the payment ofwater charges for nine months. The purpose of the suspension is to allow a so-called independent commission to consider the funding of domestic water services, refer its recommendations to an Oireachtas committee which will make recommendations to the Dáil for a final decision.

The frustration of the Deputies who tabled these two amendments stems from the fact that there has been no opportunity for the House to debate fully or influence the membership of the commission, or its terms of reference. The considerations of the committee will automatically be limited by this fact. We did not have on Committee Stage a considered discussion of the terms of reference or the membership of the commission. Because of this, all the committee will be able to do is debate recommendations which will be very narrowly framed. Admittedly, we will be able to throw other things in, but they will already have been narrowed. The original proposition the Minister made when he introduced the Bill was that the purpose was to take the heat out of the debate and allow for a full and frank discussion of all the issues involved, but that is not what will happen. I, therefore, support the two amendments. I would not have written them in the way they have been drafted, but since I did not make the effort to write amendments and others did, I will support them. I still urge the Minister to reconsider the proposals made by my colleagues and I to include issues for the consideration of the commission and the committee such as water poverty and the others laid down in order that we can have a full discussion.

While the issue of imminent fines is not related to the amendments, as a number of other speakers have addressed it, I would also like to address it. People keep talking about the provision of legal advice. If they have it, they should publish it and if they are not willing to do so, they should stop telling us what the anonymous legal advice is. All we are getting is conjecture. Anybody who understands how European law works knows that the Water Framework Directive has five core objectives and that if there were to be infringement proceedings taken by the European Commission, they would be on the basis of whether the Government of this member state was in breach of these objectives, of which the introduction of domestic water charges is not one. The river basin management plan will provide the outline of how the Government intends to meet the five objectives and only if the Commission, post publication of the plan in 2017, considers it does not meet its objectives will it even consider taking infringement proceedings. Even if it were to do so, it would take two, three or four years for it do so because there are already infringement proceedings under way for a breach of a previous directive, the urban wastewater directive, as the Minister noted. Anybody who comes into the House and alleges that there will be imminent and enormous fines because of this Bill is making it up. Anybody with an ounce of sense and knowledge of EU law, the Water Framework Directive and infringement proceedings knows this is the case.

Sinn Féin has commissioned legal advice on this issue and, unlike others, when it is available, we will publish it because we think the public has a right to know what the legalities are. However, in the meantime I urge the Minister, notwithstanding the difficulties with the wording of the amendments, to take on board their spirit, broaden the terms of reference of the commission in order that the committee will be able to consider key issues such as water poverty, water conservation and the others mentioned by colleagues.

I also say to my colleagues that they should let the Bill get through tonight because whatever about our difficulties with what the Government is doing, we could then move to the next stage and deal with the more important issues that we all want to raise in the committee and ultimately on the floor of the Dáil to end up taking a vote on the issue which I hope will result in the abolition of water charges.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Earlier the Acting Chairman mentioned filibustering, but I do not think it is humanly or mathematically possible to do so if there is only one amendment to be dealt with on the floor of the Dáil.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is why I said it.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Acting Chairman might have engaged in a bit of it in his day.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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We will not go there.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Far from it, some of us have other responsibilities to which we would like to attend and while it may be fun to watch the lads shouting slogans across the floor at each other, this is a serious political issue, as Members know because it was the one that dominated the discussions on Government formation in the weeks they took place. It is obviously a key issue for the Anti-Austerity Alliance-People Before Profit grouping and others in the House who took a very firm stand against water charges from the time of their imposition two years ago and encouraged people to organise and march to boycott them. With all due respect to Deputy Barry Cowen - it is nothing personal - we are not here because of him but because tens of thousands of people took to the streets and made water charges such a massive issue when politicians knocked on the door and also did not pay them, despite all the threats made.

The political establishment and the political system has been discredited enough without the actions being taken in the Bill. I am a member of the committee which deals with the issues of housing, water services and the environment. I was shocked at the way everything was ruled out of order without any discussion. Effectively, an attempt was being made to confine and narrow the scope of this process and also the idea behind having a committee versus a commission. A commission is being set up that has never been agreed to in the Dáil but it was agreed to somewhere else, in a secret room, between the two major parties represented in the Dáil. The rest of the Dáil has no say in who will be included in it or represented on it. That is completely undemocratic. There should be some oversight. From what I see, it will be dominated by people who are involved in the water industry. Will there be any householder included in it - any mother or father who has to pay water bills - or anyone from Detroit suffering from water poverty to give evidence? Will there be any such representative included in it?

7 o’clock

They did not have anything like that.