Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I am glad to have an opportunity to raise this important issue. Over the weekend, people will have read astonishing revelations concerning executives in the St. John of God organisation who were paid €1.64 million. Some of the individuals in question received €50,000, while others received €250,000. I worked for St. John of God services for two and a half years, during which I met the best, most dedicated and fantastic people I have every worked with. I also met many fantastic family members of service users and the experience put me in good stead.

There is something rotten about these revelations. The chief executive of St. John of God services is paid €182,000 per annum or six times more than the average worker in the organisation. When one delves into the issue, one is shocked by what one discovers. St. John of God services, which received €130 million last year, signed a service level agreement which states that the organisation must not pay or subsidise salaries or expenses which exceed those normally paid within the public sector. There is something rotten when the chief executive of a voluntary body such as St. John of God services is paid such an extraordinary amount of money when the service level agreement stipulates that no member of staff in the organisation should be paid more than €110,000 per annum.

Why is taxpayers' money being allocated to St. John of God services when its executives are being paid such extraordinary amounts? Taxpayers subsidise the health service and the voluntary bodies working in the sector. What does the Government propose to do about this issue? Action must be taken because the problem is not confined to St. John of God services. The same issue arose regarding the Central Remedial Clinic and Rehab in recent years. Having worked in the service, I believe many people will be enraged by recent developments, especially given recent cutbacks in St. John of God services, for example, the closure of St. Raphael's unit in Celbridge. It is outrageous that this has been allowed to happen. I hope the Minister of State will respond.

Finian McGrath (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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I congratulate Deputy Gino Kenny on his election to the House. It is great to hear different and new voices raising important issues, particularly with regard to services for people with disabilities.

It is important to outline what has taken place thus far in order that we can address the specific issues that have arisen. In June 2012, the Health Service Executive's internal audit undertook a review of the remuneration paid by section 38 agencies, bodies funded by the HSE pursuant to section 38 of the Health Act 2004, to their senior management. The audit identified significant key findings and the overall assessment of the control environment was considered to be seriously inadequate due to the significance of the issues identified. I understand the HSE was only very recently made aware of the payments by the St. John of God Hospitaller Order to 14 of its senior managers in 2013. On foot of the review, the Health Service Executive wrote to the order to inform it that the HSE's internal audit has been requested to undertake a review of the payment of additional remuneration to St. John of God senior managers and request the organisation’s full co-operation throughout the process.

A review of all section 38 providers by external consultants is already under way. The purpose of these reviews is to establish the standard of governance in place in these organisations and to confirm independently that the governance practices and procedures accord with those set out in their respective annual compliance statements. These reviews involve an examination of key governance processes and documents, including obtaining confirmation that internal financial controls and formal written financial procedures are in place in these organisations. We need to engage in reform and act on these matters. Six reviews are under way and their outcomes will inform the HSE's relationship with the agency concerned and any further enhancement of the HSE's overall governance framework.

On 27 September 2013, the Department issued to the HSE a health sector pay policy, Circular 1112013, which reflected Government pay policy as it applies across the public service. The circular was prepared following consultations with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. The Department of Health consolidated salary scales, as sanctioned by the Minister for Health, set out the current salaries for the public health service. The health sector pay policy states that the health consolidated salary scales must be strictly adhered to and in no circumstances should an employee receive remuneration in the nature of pay and allowances of an amount greater than the amount prescribed. It is made very clear that this pay policy applies to all employees of the HSE and agencies funded by the HSE, in whole or in part, under section 38 of the Health Act 2004. It is also made clear that section 38 funded agencies may not supplement approved rates of remuneration with Exchequer funding or non-Exchequer sources of funding.

Each section 38 provider is required to furnish to the HSE an annual compliance statement in which it is required to confirm, among other matters, that all remuneration paid to employees is in accordance with public health sector pay policy and that other sources of funding are not being used to supplement employee remuneration that exceed Department of Health consolidated salary scales and pension arrangements. Financial penalties may be imposed by the HSE for non-compliance. The health sector pay policy states that where an organisation wishes to make a business case for the continuation of unsanctioned salaries or allowances, it may do so and this will be considered by the HSE, with the involvement of the Department of Health and Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, as necessary.

Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I thank the Minister of State for his comprehensive reply. This issue raises a question which is depressing in some ways. From where did St. John of God get the sum of €1.64 million to pay 14 of its senior managers? If it was not provided by the Health Service Executive, it must have been raised by service users' families, as occurs in many voluntary services, through sponsored walks, organised cake sales and so forth. It is very difficult to raise funds these days, yet family members have provided funding to pay a salary of €180,000. The chief executive and other executives who were paid bonuses should resign. I will be careful in my use of language but these people have no shame. No one can justify paying such high salaries, particularly in an organisation such as St. John of God.

As I stated, I worked in St. John of God services for many years and it is a great organisation with an amazing staff who provide a fantastic service. The revelations we have heard are unbelievable. I hope the loophole that allowed these payments to be made will be closed. The bigger issue, however, is that the payment of salaries of €90,000, €100,000 or €110,000 to executives in voluntary organisations does not sit well with people. No one is worth such a salary. Ordinary workers in hospitals and other parts of the health service work hard in difficult jobs for a fraction of the pay awarded to managers.

There is something very wrong in this industry and I hope it can be addressed in the coming period.

Finian McGrath (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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I agree with Deputy Kenny in respect of some of the points he raised. I also believe we have to change the mindset with regard to services for people with disabilities. We have to start talking about it. Part of my vision as the new Minister of State with responsibility in this area is to deal with the whole idea of rights and equality for people with disabilities. We want to get away from the charity idea. These are our family members, children, neighbours and friends. More than 600,000 people in the State have someone with an intellectual or physical disability in the family or have a disability themselves. Most of them pay their taxes every day and many of them are working. By the way, not enough of them are working but that is another debate for another day. However, they are contributing to the Exchequer and they are entitled to a service. We need to get away from the charity model.

Deputy Kenny has raised these issues and it really annoys me when we see what is actually going on. He referred to €1.64 million. Let us consider the vast amount €1.64 million could do for services.

There is another issue that I am concerned about. This year in the Estimates, St. John of God services is going to get €132.4 million from the taxpayer, the Exchequer. We need to clean up the services. We need to ensure that the money is spent on the services, including on occupational therapy and speech and language therapy. We need to deal with the issue of excessive pay. Of course, it is wrong and I will not accept it. As far as I know, senior managers from St. John of God will be before the Committee of Public Accounts this coming Friday. That is where our colleagues should ask the hard questions.

However, I am giving a commitment today. Part of my plan and strategy in the coming months is to try to reform, clean up and point out the services that are good. I have come across some great services recently. Those involved are spending the money on the services for people, children and adults, with physical and intellectual disabilities.