David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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20. To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform how he intends to deal with Association of Secondary Teachers Ireland and the Garda Representative Association in the context of the Public Service Stability (Lansdowne Road) Agreement 2013 to 2016; his plans to use the powers he has under financial emergency measures in the public interest legislation to penalise the members of these associations; how this will work in practice; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19906/16]

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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21. To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform his plans to address outstanding industrial relations issues relating to teachers and members of An Garda Síochána who are currently outside collective pay agreements; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19905/16]

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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There has been far too much talk from the Minister's Department in respect of trade unions and public sector workers currently outside the terms of the Lansdowne Road agreement. There has been talk in the past of penalising and punishing workers who are outside the terms of that agreement. What is the Minister's plan for those workers now? Where do they stand? There are reasonable expectations that all public sector workers have that go beyond the Lansdowne Road agreement. We now have some unions and some workers who for genuine reasons have not signed up. Will the Minister outline his intention in terms of these workers?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 20 and 21 together.

First, to be clear and to correct the Deputy from the outset, there has not been talk from me or my Department about penalising anybody. Second, as I made clear publicly over the weekend and in the early part of this week, I am putting equal focus in my Department on the 23 unions that are inside the Lansdowne Road agreement while putting due focus on those three representative bodies who are outside it.

With regard to the other points the Deputy put to me, pay issues for public servants are currently determined within the constraints set by the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest, FEMPI, Acts 2009 to 2015, while the industrial relations environment is managed under the terms of the Public Service Agreement 2013-2018. The programme for Government contains a strong commitment to the Lansdowne Road agreement and gives a framework for the next few years for the Government's proposals for ongoing public service reform as well as setting out an agreed pathway to pay restoration for public servants that is affordable to taxpayers, at a cost of €844 million over three years.

As I have always said, I believe this agreement offers the best framework for reconciling the wage needs of those who provide our public services with the broader needs of those who depend upon the delivery of public services.

This agreement is now in operation for the vast majority of public servants. Over 280,000 public servants are inside the Lansdowne Road agreement. A point I have made, and I made it again to Deputy Cullinane, is that we need to put equal focus on those public servants who are inside the agreement and the 23 unions that voted for it.

The Government has to, and will, respect and keep faith with the decisions of the vast majority of public servants to come within the Lansdowne Road agreement. The benefits of and the protections afforded by the agreement will therefore apply to those people who are inside the framework. Those not represented by a body that is inside the agreement will have the relevant provisions of the FEMPI Act apply to them, and will not benefit from the protections and benefits afforded by the agreement, including incremental progression, inclusion of the supervision and substitution allowance in the salary scale of teachers, and the protections negotiated in 2010 regarding compulsory redundancies.

The Government does not want to be in dispute with any group of people working for it. The recent decisions by the AGSI and the Teachers' Union of Ireland are clear examples of the progress that has been made in bringing more associations within the Lansdowne Road agreement.

The agreement is also flexible enough to allow for the concerns of recent recruits to the public service to be addressed in a negotiated way. I confirm to the House that in that context, officials of my Department and the Department of Education and Skills agreed yesterday with the INTO and the TUI, both unions inside the agreement, to have engagement later this month to begin to fully scope out the issues involving pay arrangements for newly qualified teachers.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister said he had no intention of punishing those public sector workers who are outside the terms of the Lansdowne Road agreement, but then went on to set out exactly how he will punish them. They asked for issues to be addressed that were outside the terms of the Lansdowne Road agreement. They did not get them in those negotiations. He is now saying they will not benefit from what is in the Lansdowne Road agreement. Furthermore, he is saying they will be subject to the extraordinary powers that were given to him by the previous Government regarding the FEMPI legislation, so they will be further punished. That is what is going on here. He is punishing those workers who are outside those agreements.

The Minister has no plan beyond the Lansdowne Road agreement for public servants. He talks about those who came into the system in 2011. I have tried my best to get a figure from his Department as to how much it will cost to return to a single-tier pay structure in the public service to deal with pay equalisation. I met officials from the Minister's Department. They are not able to give me the figures. They say it is impossible to cost.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Deputy.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister needs a plan that is fair to deal with the unwinding of the FEMPI legislation-----

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Allow the Minister to reply.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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-----and he does not have one.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Not only do we have a plan, but we have a plan that has been accepted by 280,000 public servants in 23 unions. The reality is that if I was adopting a different approach and looking to dismantle the Lansdowne Road agreement, Deputy Cullinane would be in the House criticising me for doing that and for not keeping faith with the 280,000 people in those unions who are part of the agreement.

With regard to language of punishment, that language is entirely Deputy Cullinane's. It is language that neither I nor any Member of the Government has used.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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If the cap fits, wear it.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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We have always been very clear that the benefits of an agreement have to accrue to those who are part of the agreement. If I was to use a different approach, the Deputy would again be criticising me for doing it.

I will now turn to the position in relation to new entrants who joined the public service during the crisis. I have already indicated to Deputy Cullinane that my Department has begun preliminary meetings with unions in that regard. We held a meeting yesterday with the INTO and the TUI.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Time please, Minister.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Of course, the cost of that will be subject to our Estimates process but most obviously will be subject to the nature of the agreement.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Even rent is way too much for young teachers.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I want to tease out the announcement by the Minister that he mentioned during his first reply to Deputy Cullinane regarding the process with the Department of Education and Skills, the TUI and the INTO. Perhaps the Minister will outline what exactly is involved in that process, what is the deadline for completion and how deep the consultation will be for those involved in the process with new entrants.

With regard to the Garda Representative Association, GRA, it has an issue around commitments given to them by the Minister and his predecessor under the Haddington Road agreement not being met, particularly the review of Garda practices. Perhaps the Minister will clarify the situation.

With regard to new entrants to the education sector, does the Minister have plans to enter into a process with other new entrants into the civil and public service around their allowances and terms and conditions?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I will address the Deputy's first question. This builds on a commitment I gave in the earlier Dáil session around dealing with issues for new entrants. I may have been responding to questions to Deputy Calleary on this when I indicated to him that the Lansdowne Road agreement creates the processes in which matters of concern to those inside the agreement can be dealt. That is what we are doing. We are triggering one of those processes. With regard to how long that will take, I am not going to impose a deadline on that process as I do not believe it fair to those unions who have come in good faith to engage with us on the matter. I am having this engagement because of recognition of the concerns articulated by the unions on this matter.

The Deputy referred to the GRA. I am pleased to confirm that an individual has been appointed with the support of the parties involved, Mr. John Horan,-----

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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-----to look at how issues around the GRA, the Department of Justice and Equality and the Government can be dealt with.

The Deputy's final question was about terms, conditions and allowances of other new entrants in the civil and public service. We will look at such matters and engage with unions all the time inside the Lansdowne Road agreement on issues of concern to them.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister. Deputy Cullinane has one further question.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister is a master at not answering the question I ask. The question was what is his plan to unwind FEMPI beyond the Lansdowne Road agreement? I am not asking the Minister to tear apart the Lansdowne Road agreement. I am asking him to spell out his plan for unwinding FEMPI in its totality and how long it would take do it. There are reasonable expectations that all of those, including the trade unions under the Lansdowne Road agreement umbrella, have that go beyond the agreement.

Will he Minister also clarify how he will treat those public sector workers who are not unionised and who did not sign up to the Lansdowne Road agreement because they were not in unions? How will the Minister treat them? Will they be treated differently from those members of ASTI or the GRA who voted against the Lansdowne Road agreement and are outside it? The Minister has not thought this through. What about dual schools which have different unions? He needs to think this through and he has not. He has no plan to deal with that other than what was in the previous FEMPI legislation.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Alas, I am not a master of anything at all. I answer the questions which the Deputy puts to me. However, when I answered the questions, I pointed out that not only is there a plan, but the plan has been voted on by the majority of unions. These are points of truth of which the Deputy takes no cognisance, apart from the fact that if I was outlining any other course of action the Deputy would be here criticising me for letting down the people who voted for this agreement.

I will answer the question, which the Deputy did not put to me earlier, on plans to unwind FEMPI. The programme for Government is very clear on this aspect. The future of the FEMPI legislation has to be based on negotiation with those in the trade union movement and based on the ability of the State to afford it. It is all in the context of the collective Lansdowne Road agreement, which at the moment is giving wage increases to members who are part of the agreement.

The final question put to me by the Deputy was about the impact of this process on schools in particular. The Department of Education and Skills is dealing with the matter, keeping in mind what could happen later in the year and the recent decision by the ASTI in relation to the Lansdowne Road agreement. Not only do we have a plan and a strategy, but we have-----

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister. He has made that point a number of times.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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------a plan that has been accepted by the majority of unions.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister has said he will not impose a deadline on the new process he has announced but he does need to inject a sense of urgency into the process. We are asking people who are new entrants since 2012 to do the same job as those who were there before them at a time when rental costs are sky high and there are many other issues which affect them. There needs to be an urgency about it.

It is time the Minister laid out a roadmap for the gradual unwinding of FEMPI. The Minister needs to introduce proposals against which an unwinding can be measured. People need to be given some sort of a sense of roadmaps, measurables and a process for the unwinding. Perhaps the Minister will also clarify where we are at on the public service pay commission. I would like to hear from that soon.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy referred to the need for urgency. I acknowledge that this is a matter that Deputy Calleary has raised with me on new entrants in to the public service and especially teachers. That has informed the approach taken by me and the Department of Education and Skills on this matter.

With regard to the unwinding of FEMPI, it should be put into context. I am taking a group of questions on this point in just a moment. We are in year one of a three year agreement. We are in the early phase of an agreement which a number of unions have just voted to join. This three year agreement still has two years to run. When considering future legislation and the environment post-Lansdowne Road agreement, we will lay out our plans when the current agreement has expired and has done the work we are expecting it to do and which we have agreed with the majority of unions.