Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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7. To ask the Minister for Education and Skills her views on the construction of an additional secondary school in south Wexford, given the long waiting lists for schools in the region; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [43784/15]

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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This question is related to the previous question. Rather than repeating what I have said, I will discuss another dimension of the issue, although I realise it is not raised directly in the question. Many of these projects are operated under the public private partnership, PPP, system. I have put questions to the different Departments, including the Department of Education and Skills, asking for information on value for money with regard to the use of PPPs for school projects. It is nearly impossible to get information about this. The European Union does not allow us to borrow money on the markets to invest in infrastructure like schools so we are driven into the hands of PPPs. Does the Minister agree that the European Union should address this and the Government should challenge it on the issue?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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As I advised the Deputy earlier, on 17 November I announced that four primary schools and nine post-primary schools will open in 2017 and 2018 as a result of the outcome of the latest demographic exercises conducted by my Department. My officials use a geographical information system to identify where the pressure for additional school places will arise. The system uses data from the Central Statistics Office, Ordnance Survey Ireland and the Department of Social Protection in addition to information from the Department's own databases.

The demographic exercise does not indicate a requirement at this point for a new post-primary school for the south Wexford region but my officials are monitoring the position and will keep the demographic data for the area under ongoing review, taking into account updated enrolment data and the impact of planned expansion of capacity in schools in the region. My colleague, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, last week met representatives of the five second level schools in Wexford town to discuss the pressures they currently face. It was agreed that the principals will share the details of those who are enrolled for next year with the Department so we can identify whether these are cases where the same children are enrolled in multiple schools or if there are other factors which are creating unanticipated pressure on Wexford schools.

With regard to the Deputy's opening remarks, PPPs have been used in a relatively small number of cases and the outcome has been very satisfactory from the perspective of the schools involved. That is certainly the case in what is reported to me. By and large, the vast majority of schools built in Ireland are funded through the public purse. Even in the worst of times we have been able to make provision for schools and extensions where they were needed.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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Will the Minister indicate if any of the four projects currently planned for Wexford are PPPs? I wrote to at least six Departments seeking information on PPPs, including the Minister's Department. The stock answer is: "In making the decision, I have considered the public interest and, on balance, I am satisfied that the public interest would not be better served in this instance by the release of information." In other words, it is in the public interest to give people the mushroom treatment; that is plenty of darkness and loads of manure. I do not understand the idea of a freedom of information request if the public cannot access the information.

The Minister mentioned primary schools and it is interesting that the Irish National Teachers' Organisation recently stated "90% of children in Wexford primary schools are being educated in classes larger than the EU average". My God, how frightening a figure is that? Another statistic indicates that three from ten pupils in primary schools in Wexford are in classes of 30 or more. Is that not a crisis level?

I understand that the Minister might not have the information on PPPs now but it would be great if she could revert to me on the projects planned in Wexford. It would be great to know how many of them are likely to be PPPs, if any. What is the overall cost to the State?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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In general, the percentage of schools built through PPPs is very low but we can get the Deputy the specific information for Wexford. These are generally done in bundles and the projects are put out to tender. It is a tendering process like any other, so the information is available.

We managed to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio in the most recent budget. We have very large classes and that is something I wanted to address but we did not have the money to do it up to this year. We have reduced the pupil-teacher ratio in primary schools by one point and we have also reduced it in post-primary schools by a percentage of a point. I have indicated that part of this process should be used to improve the offering of guidance in post-primary schools and to address some of the middle management issues identified by schools. Schools would have lost some people below the principal level who take responsibility in schools, and the indication is there is a real problem in that respect. We will use some of the funding to address that issue. We all want to see class sizes reduced as soon as the finance permits. We have brought it to a point in primary schools this year.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The Minister has stated the Government did not have the money to do it until now. I know PPP payments are current expenditure rather than capital. The Government can borrow money at 1.7% and it could do so for school building rather than being pushed into the arms of the PPPs - their cost can be up to 15%. It is surely a no-brainer.

It will save a lot of money in the long term and is such a good investment for the country. Money has probably never been as cheap in our lifetime as the 1.7% rate at which the State can borrow. It is fantastic, except that the State is not allowed to borrow at 1.7% to invest in as serious a matter as infrastructure because of the EU rules. The truth is that, although we are not getting this information from freedom of information requests, PPPs spread over a 25 year period are costing up to 15%. Is this not something worth challenging the EU on? Investment in infrastructure is a winner all round and money has never been as cheap. It has never made so much sense to invest in infrastructure, if we could do it through a normal scheme rather than pushing it into the arms of the PPPs.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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We will invest €2.8 billion by way of public funding In the school building capital programme for the next six years and a very small percentage by way of PPP after that. The Deputy is actually telling the story of how successful we have been in terms of restoring the economy in that we have got our borrowing rates down that low and we have restored the economy to health.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The Minister is misinterpreting me.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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We are taking in a considerable amount more than we expected in terms of taxation of various kinds. The Government believes we should be investing in public infrastructure, particularly in schools but also in other areas of public infrastructure. As the economy recovers, there will be more public money to invest. We are funding the schools primarily through public investment, which is as it should be.