Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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In the past week global leaders have attended the Paris summit on climate change. President Obama spoke about the need for this generation to act on climate change policy because if it does not it will be too late for future generations. It is a challenge and an opportunity for all of us to do what is right. It involves everyone in urban and rural areas taking up this challenge.

Wind energy guidelines were published in 2006 and there are many wind turbines around all parts of this country to help Ireland achieve its alternative energy targets. Last year 23% of Ireland’s energy requirement was produced by alternative energy sources. Four fifths of this came from onshore wind.

Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Can we have the Deputy's script please?

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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As the scale of the turbines increases communities are justifiably concerned about the noise, the shadow flicker, the distance from the turbines-----

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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That is Deputy Durkan’s issue.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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-----and the impact this will have on the quality of their lives and communities. New draft revisions to the noise setbacks and the shadow flicker in the 2006 wind energy guidelines were published two years ago this month. These required turbines to have a noise limit of 40 decibels and a setback of 500 m and a complete elimination of shadow flicker. The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Kelly, started a further consultation process in spring 2014 and received up to 7,500 submissions that made many suggestions on how wind turbines could continue. This consultation delayed the publication of the new guidelines and got the Government through the European and local elections.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Since then various Ministers have said the new guidelines would be published in 2014. We are now in the last month of 2015 and we have no new guidelines. County development plans are being amended and overturned for taking a proactive stance and introducing local policy on wind energy in the absence of national policy.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is a speech.

Derek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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That is a Second Stage speech.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy White, has changed the Renewable Energy Feed in Tariff, REFIT 2 scheme to enable-----

Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Can we have the script?

Derek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Does the Deputy have a question?

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputies opposite do not like this.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Deputies do not like the change.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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-----existing applicants who are experiencing difficulty in the planning process.

Derek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Will the Deputy give us his script?

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government has said------

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputies should listen to what he is saying. He is trying to put the question.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Deputies opposite do not like standing their ground.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Point of order.

Derek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Does the Deputy have a question?

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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There are a few windbags over there.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Will the Deputy circulate his speech?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, can I ask the Deputy to circulate his speech?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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There are no points of order during Leaders’ Questions.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Would Deputy Durkan sit down?

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The speech should be circulated.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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If the Deputies would listen to what I am saying they would not need circulation of anything.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Is the Deputy about to circulate his speech?

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government has said he favours a distance of 600 m to 1.5 km for dwellings.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is totally off the point. That is a speech.

Derek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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This is a speech.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Coffey, seems very frustrated with the Government’s position because it is a huge issue in the south east.

The Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy White, is on record as disagreeing about long distances from dwellings because he said it would wipe out onshore wind energy in this country.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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This is outrageous.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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How many pages are in this speech?

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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It is an election speech.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy should put a question.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Do the Deputies want a question?

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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What about the guidelines?

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Government still committed to onshore wind energy as a source of alternative energy? If so can communities across the country expect the publication of the new guidelines about the size of the turbines, the required distance from dwellings as well as the decibel limits?

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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The Deputy asked that five minutes ago.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, this is a total abuse of the House. This is a speech being read into the Official Report.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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This has gone on for five minutes.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Will these guidelines be put on a statutory footing? Have talks between the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government broken down?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Come on.

Derek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I have never seen such an outrageous abuse.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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This is a speech.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Can the Minister indicate whether the new distance will be 600 m or will it be up to 1.5 km as the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government recommends?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Did Donie Cassidy write the speech?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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This is an abuse of a serious issue.

Derek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely the worst abuse.

A Deputy:

We still believe in free speech.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I hope the decibels the Deputy is talking about will be lower.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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That was a decisive intervention, Deputy Durkan.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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I recognise the Deputy’s opening remarks about the importance of the discussions and negotiations taking place in Paris at the Conference of Parties, COP 21 conference.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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He went totally off then.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Minister has stood on the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Kelly.

Derek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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He is getting more pages out now.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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The challenge to all of the world-----

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Minister should support the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Kelly.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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-----not just to the people in this Chamber, rural or urban Ireland, is to reach an agreement to ensure that the planet we live on and the physical environment in which we live, and future generations we hope will live, will be protected from the growing adverse impact of global warming.

I am sorry, however, to note that Deputy Troy quickly abandoned the aspirational remarks in the first 15 seconds or so of his contribution because I regard the necessity for an agreement at COP 21 to be perhaps the most pressing issue facing the world-----

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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That is why the Ministers have to agree on the guidelines.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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-----including the people of Tipperary.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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We have agreed on a provisional guideline.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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If Deputy Mattie McGrath would give himself even a minute or two to consider these big issues and try not to continue thinking so small and local all the time and think even for five minutes or so about the broader opportunities and potential we have to bring about change-----

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Poor Deputy Kelly. The Minister will not even talk to him. He will not even talk to my colleague.

Noel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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Deputy McGrath should not break the peace.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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I make the point to Members on all sides of the House that they can debate energy policy, for example, for which I have the privilege to be responsible and I will return to the issue of wind energy. They can and should debate these issues, but they cannot reduce them to a backbiting effort to embarrass this or that Minister about this or that set of regulations. There is a legitimate issue.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Why do they not agree?

Noel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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Do not break the peace.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Two minutes later.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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Will the Deputy just listen for one minute?

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Listen. Members opposite did not give that opportunity to Deputy Robert Troy.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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There is a legitimate issue Members can debate, but can they not think big, even for a few minutes, about the challenges facing us as a people and the planet?

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I could not hear the Deputy. Free speech mar dhea.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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I appeal to Deputy Robert Troy and his party, as well as others, as many Deputies do understand the importance of these issues. On the question of energy wind, I will answer the Deputy bluntly and clearly. I have no doubt that the development and advancement of onshore wind energy projects will be and must be a significant element of Ireland's energy policy and its approach to combating climate change in the years ahead.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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At 50%.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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Yes is the answer to that question. I can only speak as Minister, but I will have a White Paper before the Government shortly. It will be published and the Government will set out its view.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Will the Minister have one outside his house?

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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I do not know who will be Minister next year or the year after, but I can state that whosoever he or she may be, he or she will continue the policy begun by the Government, of which Deputies Robert Troy and Barry Cowen were supporters.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Deputies Patrick O'Donovan and Pat Deering will have two each outside their houses.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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I respect what it did by advancing that policy.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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There is a lot of wind from over there.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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What about the flood barrier in Clontarf?

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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It has been sorted.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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Some Members on the other side are a little embarrassed by the attempt of Deputy Robert Troy to reduce the subject to this backbiting because we must advance renewable energy generation in Ireland.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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What about farmers?

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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We must advance our policy to promote energy efficiency-----

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Farmers against climate change,

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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-----as otherwise we will simply not be in a position to make a realistic or any contribution to the change needed in Ireland. On the wind energy guidelines, nothing has broken down between Ministers in this regard.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Why does the Minister never see him?

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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Yes, the Departments involved are continuing to consider what would be the best set of guidelines.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Two minutes later.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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However, there are guidelines in place and there is a good argument to make them statutory. There is a strong case for changing them to deal with the issues of noise and shadow flicker mentioned by Deputy Robert Troy. I consider the matter of having a setback distance unconnected with the issue of noise or shadow flicker to be more problematic. I have been honest about this because were there to be a setback distance similar to that advocated by some people, I repeat it would wipe out the use of onshore wind energy in this country as a renewable source. Incidentally, this is a technology Deputy Robert Troy's party when in government was happy and right to bring forward.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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At 50%?

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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The Government is continuing that process because we must do so. There is no use in talking about climate change and big aspirational points which, of course, make sense on their own, only to then quickly abandon all of these big thoughts and go back to seeing whom one can embarrass. In response to Deputy Robert Troy, I advocate that we work together on this issue as a country and as a Parliament to address the issue of climate change.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Yes and show leadership.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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Away with all of this nonsense of attacking people just for the sake of it.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Yes, get away from the past.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister. May I have order, please? If we have order, Members might stay within the speaking time limits.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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It is to be hoped Government Members will afford me the same courtesy that they afforded the Minister when listening to his reply.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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They will not let the Deputy speak.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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A supplementary question, please.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister spoke about Fianna Fáil's position, but contrary to what he said, Fianna Fáil published an alternative energy document nearly two years ago. Moreover, we submitted it as part of the process the Government had initiated. Members of my party visited Denmark to consult experts before finalising the plan. Denmark is a country that is held up as an example of international best practice and that has recently moved away from onshore to offshore wind energy production. If the Minister seeks a copy of the plan, I have one to hand or could submit it to his office.

Noel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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One for everyone in the audience.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Fianna Fáil is committed to meeting the European Union targets to reduce carbon emissions by 2030. However, the wind energy issue is of great concern across all provinces. It may not be a big issue in the centre of Dublin, but it certainly is a major issue in my constituency of Longford-Westmeath-----

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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And Tipperary.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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-----and many other constituencies the length and breath of the country. Being committed to dealing with climate change and publishing new documents is all very well, but when such documents are not backed up by implementation and action plans, they simply gather dust.

Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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A question, please.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Two years have passed since the Government committed to publishing new guidelines for wind turbines.

Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Will there be a question?

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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County development plans have been delayed, overturned and amended.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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A question, please.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Who signed up to the guidelines?

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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There are High Court cases pending. Applications are still coming in under the outdated wind energy guidelines from 2006.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Who signed up to the guidelines?

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Government is sitting on its guidelines.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Applications still are being made and such applications will be dealt with under the old guidelines.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Deputy, please, ask a question?

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Communities have real and genuine fears and I am merely representing them in the Chamber.

Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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To stir it up.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Who signed up to these targets? This is hypocrisy.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is meeting them in delegations with Government Deputies on an ongoing basis.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Exactly.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is also aware that there are real and genuine concerns.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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A question, please.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I will ask the Minister one simple question. When will the Government - Fine Gael and the Labour Party - produce its wind energy guidelines and will they be put on a statutory footing?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Who set the targets?

Tom Fleming (Kerry South, Independent)
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That is two questions.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Who will win the argument? Will it be the Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, or the Minister, Deputy Alex White? What will the setback distance be?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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No, Deputy, come on.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I am standing up for the communities who have real fears.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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The people need to win the argument. The Deputy has stated he is here to represent his constituents, which is absolutely true and he does so with great fervour. However, he also is here to show leadership. When will he show some leadership on the issue?

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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When will the Minister produce the documents?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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This is Leaders' Questions.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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When will all Members realise that there is tension between what must be done in respect of renewable energy-----

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Between the Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, and the Minister, Deputy Alex White.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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----- and the genuine and legitimate concerns of citizens and local communities? One must recognise that there is tension.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Fianna Fáil populism.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Tension on the backbenches.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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Members are the ones on whom it falls to find a way of removing such tension.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Tension in the Cabinet.

Noel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy should keep the peace.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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As for the White Paper that will be published next week, Deputy Robert Troy wanted to talk about Fianna Fáil's document, which I have seen, but he should not denigrate the idea that we come together as a Government and debate in this parliament a White Paper that will set out the path both on the issue of renewable energy and all related energy issues in the coming years.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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While planning applications continue.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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Members can have that debate in this House. The Deputy simply wishes to snipe about planning applications-----

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When will the guidelines be published?

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Typical Fianna Fáil populism.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

----- but I ask him to think for one minute about the possibilities for this country in developing renewable energy projects. Members will have the opportunity to debate that issue in the coming weeks.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Dodge another election.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A central element of the White Paper will address the genuine concerns people have in local communities about energy policy, on which there is tension.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Tension is right.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the Minister answer the question I asked?

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Responsibility for publication of guidelines lies with the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, as the Deputy is aware.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, it is a Government decision.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have made my position clear.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister is representing the Government in the Chamber.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the Deputy, please, settle down?

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The sniping and heckling from Members opposite, unfortunately, are always a substitute for real debate.

Sandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about Government Members?

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Blame Kelly again.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Michael Moynihan is the representative of Fianna Fáil on the committee and absolutely contributes on the issue of energy policy.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister should look behind him. Where is Wikileaks today?

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

However, on energy policy-----

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister cannot blame Kelly for everything.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----neither the Deputy nor Deputy Robert Troy can reduce their responsibility in this House in the way they seek to deal with the legitimate concerns of local communities.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When will the Minister produce the guidelines?

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Fianna Fáil gave the Government a paper two years ago.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They also have a responsibility to match what we must do as a country to have a renewable energy policy that will meet the challenges of the future.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We gave the paper to the Government two years ago.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Where are the guidelines?

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Members have been talking for too long about the issue.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They have a responsibility to face the future, not to constantly face the past-----

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Compare Fianna Fáil's climate change Bill with that of the Government.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----or constantly regard the job in terms of it being a representative role, as it undoubtedly is, but also to give leadership.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the Minister take over leadership of the Labour Party by blaming Kelly?

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Members opposite ask questions but will not allow anyone to finish.

A Deputy:

They are all obsessed with whingeing.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister has not answered the question. What about the guidelines?

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are no guidelines.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are afraid they will be exposed for their lack of leadership on this issue. The Government will proceed. It will have a renewable energy policy that will be supported by the people because they will see the great potential inherent within it.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Actions, not words.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That will not wash.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I call Deputy Mary Lou McDonald. May we have order, please?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Every day families are being made homeless. Thousands of children will sleep in unsuitable emergency accommodation tonight. Home repossessions, rising rents and a shortage of council housing are the causes of family homelessness. Councils not only have housing waiting lists, they now also have waiting lists for emergency accommodation. Families are being forced to sleep rough, overhold on their leases or move in with family and friends. A huge number of those who find themselves in this awful position are at work.

Let me give an example. Máire is a single mother with two children. She works full-time in a low-paid job in retail. Unable to afford child care, her mother minds the children while she is in work. She is not eligible for rent supplement and cannot find a landlord who will take the housing assistance payment. Máire's rent has increased by 20% in the past two years. The crunch came for her when her landlord served her with a €100 rent increase this year. She told him she simply did not have the money and he replied with a notice to quit.

She looked frantically for alternative accommodation but could not find anything affordable. She presented to her local council homeless section but was turned away because all of the hostels and hotels were full. This case is not an isolated one; it happens day after day. A new survey from Co-operative Housing Ireland indicates that 32% of tenants across the State live in fear of losing their homes. In Dublin, 50% of tenants are fearful of becoming homeless.

The only meaningful solution that will allay this fear is to link market rents to the consumer price index - in other words, to provide rent certainty. These families are being made homeless because of the Government's failure to introduce rent certainty. The Minister has urged others to demonstrate leadership. I urge him to demonstrate leadership and tell us when the Government will provide the rent certainty that families like Máire's desperately need.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is not acceptable that in Ireland in 2015, we have families, including children, living in emergency accommodation. The case the Deputy raises, or any other such case, is simply unacceptable. The Deputy talks about the only meaningful solution. As she well knows, the only meaningful solution to this undoubted problem that exists - nobody denies that it exists - is that we actually resume as quickly as possible, as we are doing, a home building programme in the State, one that was abandoned disgracefully seven or eight years ago, where local authorities withdrew, and in fact were encouraged to withdraw, from the building of social housing. That will allow us to provide the homes that individuals and families need and in that way ensure we address the issue of homelessness. That is the only meaningful solution in my view. That is the leadership the Government is showing and needs to show in respect of this issue of the housing problem and the associated homeless factor that we have at the moment.

We have increased funding, as the Deputy will be aware. We have allocated approximately €2.2 billion for social housing in the coming period. We have increased Exchequer support to address homelessness, in particular for emergency accommodation, by €17 million. Exchequer funding in that regard is now of the order of €70 million, an increase of 56% since 2014.

We have a cold weather action plan for the winter months in the Dublin area to assist people who are at risk of sleeping rough. Additional beds are being brought on line. We are addressing the emergency element of the problem and the Minister, Deputy Kelly, is doing that effectively. That is what leadership is about and that is what we are doing and what we intend to continue to do.

Demonstrating leadership means having a range of policy approaches to address, first, the immediate emergency edge of the problem relating to homelessness, particularly in our cities, which is what we are doing. In the medium term, we need to get going as quickly as possible, as we are doing, with a social housing building programme. That is what we are addressing.

On rent certainty, colleagues will be aware that the Minister, Deputy Kelly, is bringing legislation through the Houses in respect of the rental sector. Additional certainty is being afforded by that legislation so that we can do as much as we can with the legislative measures we put in place to ensure that people who are in rental accommodation are not in fear of rent increases on a regular basis and that can only happen over the new period of two years.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It sounds a bit woolly.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Those are measures we are taking.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is all woolly.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Very woolly.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are also addressing deposit protection and making other changes are taking place in respect of rent certainty to protect people in rental accommodation. It may be a subject of mirth for Deputy Cowen but is a serious issue for the people affected and is a serious issue for the Government, which is why we are addressing it now.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Government has not shown that for the past four years.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is not acceptable for the Minister to say to families, such as Máire's, that their predicament is not acceptable when the Government has a hand in creating their misery. That is the truth. The coalition has been in government for almost five years and its record on social housing build is pathetic. I am shocked that the Minister and his colleagues repeatedly give out that message as though they had revolutionised social housing provision - far from it.

What it has allowed is a situation where families, including children, sleep in bed and breakfasts, hostels and hotels, if they are lucky. What it has allowed is a situation where children try to make it to school every day for weeks on end from those hotels, if they are lucky. What it has allowed is a situation where people sleep on sofas or in their mothers' box rooms for months or years. What it has allowed is fear in a whole generation not alone that they will not own their own home but that they will be priced out of the rented accommodation on which they rely, the place they call home.

I ask the Minister to clarify this because I am curious to know. Last night the Government Members voted down Sinn Féin legislation on the issue of rent certainty and the prevention of homelessness. Revealingly enough, most of the Minister's colleagues did not consider it worth their while to show up for the debate. How does the Minister answer Máire who needs rent certainty and all those tenants - the figures do not lie - 50% of whom are in Dublin and more than 30% are across the State who currently fear they will be priced out of their homes? When will they get rent certainty or has the Government given up the ghost on that? This is on its watch and it is its responsibility. The Minister should not talk to others about leadership when he so clearly fails in that regard.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We can have a debate about how the problem happened.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, we cannot.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Answer the question.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If that is the question-----

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Order, please.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If that is the question the Deputy wants to ask, when she talks about the misery and how this was caused, we can do that-----

A Deputy:

We want to know what the Government is doing.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----but I do not believe that would be productive.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please-----

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We know the housing crisis came about.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Government should fix it so.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We know what happened and we know where we are now.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister knows everything, bar the solution.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What we are about is solutions.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, it is not.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is what this Government is about.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We need actions.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What we are about is actually delivering solutions and delivering action.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, it is not.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Fix it so.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about the Tesco advertisement?

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not know the exact individual circumstances of the person the Deputy mentioned. I have no doubt the case she raised is a genuine one and she has authenticated what she has said today. What I would say to that lady and others in terms of what we are dealing with-----

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister is in the Dáil not in court.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is no need for personal abuse. Let us just keep to the debate. What we are dealing with here is a Government that is actually addressing the situation somebody like Máire is facing.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is not.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will give an example of what I would say to her if she were here. I would say the Government-----

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You are a Minister and not a senior counsel for the moment.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy-----

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----will ensure that new houses are built and there will be an opportunity for her and her family to avail of one of those houses.

Sandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When?

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Government is ensuring that local authorities have systems in place whereby-----

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He is a Minister, not a senior counsel.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can we hear the reply, please?

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----if she wishes to apply or approach her local authority, her individual situation will be addressed in a sensitive way.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Give me a break.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister has not answered.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If she were concerned about rent certainty-----

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Go back to the Bar.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----I would tell her what was in the legislation we are bringing through the House to bring about rent certainty to ensure she has protection in her house.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is no rent certainty in the plan.

Sandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Government is running out of time.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He is stuck in Tesco.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is true we do not have the complete solution for every individual faced with this situation-----

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Government has no solution.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Government does not even have a-----

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----today, because as the Members opposite must accept, one cannot produce houses in a day or a week.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Nor five years.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Five years.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Order please.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What one can do, however, is ensure the funding is put in place to deliver those houses, ensure the money is there and bring it forward.

Sandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When?

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One can have measures, such as modular housing, which the lady in question could well avail of.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A cottage up in the clouds.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

People cannot avail of modular housing.

Sandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a temporary solution.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One could have measures in the rent legislation, which we are producing in this House.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

People can have a hotel room.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Every time I mention another measure, I get heckled-----

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister should go back to the Bar.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----because the Deputies opposite know that these are practical, serious solutions to a problem that they just want to talk about.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister is in power.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are no solutions in anything the Minister said.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He is in Tesco land.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is a disgraceful position from the Labour Party. It is pathetic. I am not interested in Fianna Fáil.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yesterday we learned that three people in five renting in Ireland have given up on ever owning their own home. We learned that half of Dublin tenants are in fear of losing their home. Somehow the Government has managed to preside over a housing crisis, a rental crisis, a homelessness crisis and a mortgage crisis all at the same time.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ineptitude.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Keep the peace, Mattie.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A total of 330,000 men, women and children today are living in homes, on which repayments are in arrears.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Michael Fingleton.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The number in arrears for more than two years continues to rise and represents those most at risk of being in court and losing their homes.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mattie will be brought up again.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

After years of inaction and just a few weeks before the election, the Cabinet this week agreed to a bankruptcy change that could only be described as a quarter of what is needed, four years too late. Last week, the Social Democrats published a comprehensive policy response to the mortgage crisis. It introduces one year bankruptcy with a maximum of an additional two years income attachment period. It includes a one-stop-shop for borrowers providing free financial and legal expertise and representation.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hear, hear.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It includes a set of mandated solutions for borrowers should they qualify. It would allow courts refuse possession orders if it can be demonstrated that there is a sustainable solution to the mortgage difficulty.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hear, hear.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It also includes a realistic way of scaling up the mortgage to rent scheme. David Hall of the Irish Mortgage Holders Organisation stated that in his opinion, working with borrowers and lenders every day, if the Social Democrats proposals, which are all perfectly sensible and achievable, were implemented, the mortgage crisis would be over for those 330,000 people in 12 to 18 months.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hear, hear.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That number would fill four Croke Parks.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister, Deputy Alex White, just stated that demonstrating leadership means a suite of policy proposals. I agree. Will he bring the Social Democrats' proposals to Cabinet and help end the mortgage crisis once and for all for 330,000 men, women and children living in fear and stress in this country?

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hear, hear.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I cannot promise to bring the proposals of any party to Cabinet.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why not?

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What I will promise to do, and in the spirit of all of us working together as a Dáil, is that I will certainly look at the proposals. We should all look at each other's proposals in particular in the context of the coming months-----

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Government does not have any.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----in terms of how we address these issues.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are only eight working days to fulfil the undertaking.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is Deputy Donnelly's question.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy will be aware that the Government has agreed to bring forward legislation on the bankruptcy period.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will it be enacted and operational before Christmas?

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That will be done.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is on the Dáil record, three times. The Taoiseach and the Tánaiste said it.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please, Deputy Mathews.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I congratulate my colleague, Deputy Penrose, on having brought forward the Bill. It is a genuine piece of legislation that will address the position faced by too many people, as a consequence of the economic crash we had to deal with in this country in recent years. I admit that I have not seen the proposals that are contained in the Deputy's document. I am sorry about that but I will read them, as I am sure he will read the proposals of other parties in the coming months.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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There are only eight working days to fulfil the undertaking made on the Dáil record.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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As we face into the closing weeks and months of this Dáil, it is necessary to recognise the achievement of the Government-----

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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The people of Ireland have the Government's undertaking.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Mathews is not a party leader yet. Could he please not interrupt?

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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-----and the achievement of what has happened in this country. We had the greatest economic crash we had ever seen, and a banking collapse on a scale that has never been seen anywhere in the world. The resulting consequences of that in terms of the living standards of so many people, in particular their opportunity to buy and own a home, have been enormous. The Government's efforts since it came to office have been to address the adverse consequences for so many people of the worst economic crash we have ever seen in this country. That is what we have been facing. If we have not been quick enough to do it, we can deal with that and address it.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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The Government resisted any expediency.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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If there are measures we could have taken a year before we took them-----

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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Four years or five years.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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-----or six months before we took them, we can have that debate but nobody can gainsay the fact that this Government-----

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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The Government resisted.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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-----with Deputy Mathews's support for a little while until he went in another direction, brought together-----

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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The Government went in a different direction and look where we are.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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-----not just the economy-----

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister should be allowed to reply.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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-----but the public finances to ensure that we now have an economy that can look to the future and a society that can benefit from a stable economic environment. That is what we now have for the first time in seven or eight years after the worst economic crash we have ever seen in this country. In so far as the Deputy is advancing his own party proposals on Leaders' Questions-----

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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The Minister did not understand the Deputy's question.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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-----people will have to recognise that the two Government parties, Fine Gael and the Labour Party, have done an enormous amount to turn this country around.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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They did nothing.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Stephen Donnelly. He should be allowed to speak without interruption.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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That is not true.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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You left the ship, Peter.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I welcome the fact the Cabinet has agreed to reduce the bankruptcy period. I tabled such a proposal in 2012 and the Government voted against it. I tabled it subsequent to that also and the Government again voted against it. I recognise and welcome the fact the Government has changed its position and is now reducing the period to one year. However, when we talk about recognising Government achievements, when it comes to the mortgage crisis, the Government's achievement is abject failure. It gives me no pleasure to say that to the Minister. Ireland's level of mortgage arrears is several times higher than other European countries which faced similar economic and housing challenges. Why? The reason is the Government took a hands-off approach and said the banks would pretty much have to solve this themselves on a case-by-case basis. Every Member of this House is helping constituents with mortgage arrears.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Every day.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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Every Member of this House knows that the first question one asks a borrower when they come in is whether they have had financial advice. Most of them say they cannot afford financial advice. Then we ask whether they have had legal advice and if they can afford legal representation. They say they cannot afford legal representation and that if they could, they would not be in mortgage arrears. Then we ask them who is their lender, because the Minister and everyone of us knows the answer to that question will largely determine whether the family is going to recover or be buried by a vindictive lender. The Minister and I know that from our time together on the finance committee.

The Social Democrats has a set of policy proposals. A one-stop-shop for borrowers would provide financial and legal advice for free and it could be set up now. MABS is in place. Other social sector organisations are in place. We do not need to wait for legislation. We do not need to wait for a new Government next year to find its feet and figure out what it wants to do and negotiate a programme for Government. This could be done now.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Donnelly.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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Mandating a set of solutions which would provide consistency and fairness could be done now. Fixing the mortgage to rent scheme could be done now. I know from my time working with the Minister on the finance committee that he cares about the mortgage crisis but the sad reality is that the Government continues to take a hands off approach and does not act.

Before the next election the Government could introduce a one-stop-shop, mandate a set of solutions and scale up the mortgage to rent scheme. All of those things are possible. While I thank the Minister for saying he will look at the proposal, before this Dáil falls, why not take a genuine position of leadership and implement measures we know will immediately help 330,000 men, women and children in this country?

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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There is an idea.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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It is completely untrue to say the Government has taken a hands-off approach to this problem. That is manifestly not true.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Of course, it is true.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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The Deputy can disagree with some of the measures-----

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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Where is the evidence?

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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-----and he can say the Government should perhaps have gone further or that he disagrees with some of the approaches that were taken but it is ludicrous to suggest that we have taken a hands-off approach.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Government is asleep at the wheel.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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The entire effort of this Government in the past five years has been to stabilise the economy after the shocking economic collapse that occurred, including, in cases where people have had to cope with the impact of mortgage arrears, including insolvency legislation which we introduced and brought through the House, and also the provision of services such as the Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS. My understanding is that since September this year MABS has been more involved and it has accelerated its efforts in regard to court mentoring-----

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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The finance committee was afraid to have the Governor of the Central Bank in. Does the Minister remember that?

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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-----and in giving advice to individuals who are faced with these issues. It is completely untrue to say that this is a hands off approach. The fact is that number of people in arrears, the number of families in financial difficulties and household debt have reduced and are reducing, of that there is no question. When the Deputy Donnelly compares Ireland to other countries he is not always comparing like with like because he knows that the crash in this country was far more severe than it was in any of the countries he could find with which to compare us.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, United Left)
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What about Iceland?

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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Spain.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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Iceland.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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The reality is that we have achieved an enormous amount, we have stabilised the economy and the public finances and now there is hope for the people that the Deputy and I represent------

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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You are not giving them much hope.

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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-----who have faced mortgage difficulties. They have hope, they can sense there is hope and this Government is giving them hope. That is what happening. Those are the specifics in terms of the approach that this Government has taken-----

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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Is the Government afraid of the work involved?

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
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-----and that is what will continue to work for the Irish people, namely, that the Government and politicians, and I include many politicians on both sides of the House, will work genuinely in the interests of their constituents and also in the interests of the country and in the interests of ensuring we have proper measures in place that are robust, that we have an economy that works and that the people of Ireland can profit from that.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.