Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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52. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality if she is satisfied that investigations into allegations made by serving members of An Garda Síochána are being carried out in a way that ensures confidentiality; that all efforts are being made to avoid negative consequences for whistleblowers; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [42367/15]

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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We have raised issues related to the Garda whistleblowers, Mr. Keith Harrison and Mr. Nick Kehoe, in here on a number of occasions. I know they have also written directly to the Minister. Their complaints were made officially for the first time in May 2014. They have been treated abysmally since then. Given that this coincided with the watch of the Garda Commissioner, Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan, and that of the Minister, how in God's name can she stand over how these two men have been treated?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy's question asks me if I am satisfied that investigations into allegations made by serving gardaí are being carried out in a way that ensures confidentiality and that all efforts are being made to avoid negative consequences for whistleblowers. However, the Deputy has come in here again today, as he has done on three previous occasions, and has given the names of whistleblowers. I am surprised in the first instance at how his concern over confidentiality equates with him mentioning the names of whistleblowers on the floor of the House.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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They were in the public domain before now.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, United Left)
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It is their confidentiality.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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He wants these questions to be dealt with confidentially and yet he comes in here-----

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I want them dealt with honestly.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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He referred to confidentiality.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, United Left)
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Of the process.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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Of the process.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister has the floor.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Yes. However, the Deputy has named people here and yet he says he wants these inquiries to be carried out in a confidential and sensitive way.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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It is well past that.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Prior to the Protected Disclosures Act 2014 coming into operation, whistleblowing was provided for under the confidential reporting scheme. Each confidential recipient was required to transmit each confidential report to the Garda Commissioner. Only where a confidential report contained an allegation which related to the Garda Commissioner was it transmitted to the Minister. Obviously there were many safeguards in place, as the Deputy knows.

We now have the Protected Disclosures Act 2014. Protection for whistleblowers rightly prioritises the confidentiality of the system and the protection of the whistleblower, which is central to the efficacy of the entire process. I am satisfied that the legislative provisions now in place under the 2014 Act, including the protections afforded for whistleblowers, will prove to be an effective remedy for Garda members who wish to report their concerns regarding alleged wrongdoing.

I would be very concerned if I felt that the whistleblowers who are having their complaints investigated by An Garda Síochána were not being dealt with in the context of the Protected Disclosures Act 2014. It was brought in to ensure proper treatment of whistleblowers. The Deputy will have heard the Garda Commissioner and other members of An Garda Síochána talk about encouraging whistleblowers to come forward, confirming that they will be dealt with properly and their complaints will be assessed in keeping with the legislation as it stands.

That clearly is the intention and if there is information to the contrary, I want to know about it.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, United Left)
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The Minister has been told about it.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The Minister has already been told about it. How any Garda whistleblower would dream of coming forward and being a whistleblower again is beyond me. I would be very surprised if one does given how these two men have been treated. Keith Harrison made his report in-----

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I presume the Deputy has the permission of the individual.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I am sorry, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, United Left)
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Permission? We do not need permission.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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He made his complaint in May 2014. The case has gone on for so long that he is no longer getting any pay from An Garda Síochána. He is on social welfare. After he made his complaint, the Garda initiated proceedings against him, dragged in a domestic, family matter and made dirt of the individual. Will anyone be answerable for how he has been treated? It is a given that this man will be proven correct in the long term. The Minister must realise that. In the meantime, some of the gardaí he complained about are suspended on full pay in Athlone and the midlands area. I understand that is the normal process. However, the whistleblower is getting no money from An Garda Síochána because of how things have been dragged out. It is interesting that a court order demanding the release of documents, which was supposed to be delivered by the Garda Síochána six weeks ago, did not happen. How in God's name could that happen? These two individuals have been put through hell. We have been worried about their mental health. It is just not true that proper protections are in place for these people. There is no protection for them. They have been treated abysmally.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Wallace has come in and has given details of individual cases on the floor of the Dáil, which I appreciate. He is obviously doing that because he thinks it is the right thing to do. I cannot comment on individual cases but we must be very careful in this House in discussing individual cases of whistleblowing. There is legislation in place, which is very new. An Garda Síochána is committed to implementing the legislation, which gives full protection to whistleblowers. If it emerges that it does not, it might well need to be amended but right now that is the legislation we have in place. The legislation on whistleblowers offers protection. It prioritises the confidentiality of the process, which is central. Deputy Wallace has heard what the Garda has had to say about dealing with complaints and putting robust procedures in place to examine cases. I am assured that is what is happening in relation to any cases being dealt with at present. Deputy Wallace is obviously being given other information. If he wants to supply that to me in any detail-----

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I have written to the Minister.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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-----other than he has already, I will pass on any relevant information but I do not discuss individual cases.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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In one of the cases, the senior investigator from GSOC told his solicitor that the Garda was refusing to co-operate and would not supply documents he was looking for or comply with his requests. I have got the very same reply from the individual who made a complaint in Kilkenny. We have a serious problem. The absence of sanctions for indiscipline among senior gardaí is glaring. It seems that senior gardaí are untouchable in their own divisions and districts. There is no effective system to discipline senior gardaí who misbehave. They are lawless. I do not say the Commissioner is responsible for it all because I would say she does not even know what is going on half the time. There is a serious problem in how the organisation works. It is not the rank and file gardaí who are the culprits; it is senior gardaí who are not being held to account. These two people have been put through hell by senior Garda authorities and pressure is still being applied to them. They are not being treated properly. There are no protections for them. The Minister can talk about legislation until the cows come home. We have building regulations in this country as well that are the envy of the planet but when we do not apply them and we do not investigate building work, they are worth zero. The same applies to the legislation unless the rules and regulations are applied on the ground but that is not happening right now.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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For the Deputy to come in here and say An Garda Síochána is lawless-----

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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Not all of them; some of them.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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-----and that the senior management either do not know or care about practices within An Garda Síochána is an extraordinary claim to make. We have new management in An Garda Síochána. We have a Garda Commissioner who was recruited through an independent open process who is setting about the reform of An Garda Síochána, examining-----

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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It was not independent and open.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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That is the management. The Garda Commissioner is the most senior person in An Garda Síochána. The Deputy is saying that An Garda Síochána is not following through on what the legislation tells it to do-----

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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Exactly.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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-----in regard to whistleblowers. That is a most serious charge.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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It is true.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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My information is that all charges regarding whistleblowing are being dealt with under the protected disclosures legislation and are being-----

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The Minister knows that is not true.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy, please. The Minister has the floor.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I do not know that.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The Minister knows that is not true.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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What I am telling the Deputy is that management in An Garda Síochána is serious and committed and is intent on reforming it, making it fit for purpose and implementing the legislation that is in place to deal with whistleblowers. That has to be done. If a whistleblower goes to management, the case has to be taken seriously, it has to be investigated and a report has to be made. The Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC, is in place as well to deal with any such complaints.