Dáil debates

Thursday, 19 November 2015

Topical Issue Debate

Disability Services Funding

4:35 pm

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I raise the issue regarding L'Arche Kilkenny, which has been in negotiation with the HSE for increased funding in respect of the excellent services it delivers in Kilkenny to those who are obliged to access them. The response of the HSE in respect of this matter has been extremely disappointing L'Arche Kilkenny was obliged to carry out significant works to the tune of approximately €300,000 to satisfy HIQA and to meet the standards now required - to FETAC level 5 - of the individuals it employs. It was happy to do all of that but in its negotiations with the HSE, the matter has been put on the long finger. This negotiation has been ongoing since July and moneys were to be paid to L'Arche to ensure that both its expenses and the debt incurred would be covered up to the end of 2015. Thereafter, an increased level of funding will be required by the organisation.

In Kilkenny, L'Arche is running at a deficit of €18,000 a month and it is extremely concerned that it may have to close its service. One family with which I have dealt directly were obliged to try to negotiate with regard to care for their loved one but, again, they were disappointed by the response from the HSE. Those to whom I refer are advocating for family members, some of whom, presumably, are of the same age as the person being cared for; they might be brothers or sisters. Why put those families through the stress and difficulties they are now experiencing? The parents and others involved came together to hold a public meeting and issued a statement to the local newspapers expressing their disappointment with the response from the HSE. In the covering letter sent to me they state that they have no faith in the HSE to deliver the funding which has been half promised for so long. They are angry and upset that some of their elderly parents are being put through this worry and upset at this time of their lives. They say that for some residents it is a brother or sister that takes on the role of advocate, and they want it to be known that they will not sit idly by. Why do they have to fight like this? Why is the service not recognised by the Department? The funding, which has been half committed, should be given to L'Arche in a spirit of good faith and partnership so that it can continue, without worry, to the end of 2015. It should be given an early indication of the increase it will receive in the context of its funding for 2016. It is extremely unfair to the individuals to whom I refer and to the organisation in question.

Something similar is happening in regard to respite at St. Patrick's special school. Funding is available but the allocation of it has been parked while the delivery of a service is being examined. While the allocation of such funding is being parked, parents are obliged to deal with this issue. They are stressed out and at the end of the their tether. Why would we not ensure that professionals are put in place speedily and this respite is given?

In the same vein, Tír na nÓg in Carlow provides respite services for children with special needs. It is seeking €320,000 from the HSE to provide, in co-operation with a local developer, the services that are necessary in Carlow. This organisation has also been stonewalled by the HSE in meeting after meeting. It has received no actual response from the executive on the delivery of the funding that is necessary to continue and expand the services or, in its case, to ensure it is given the appropriate capital fund.

The Supplementary Estimates are being released today. Surely there is sufficient funding within the latter to give commitments to the end of 2015 and that thereafter - because the Minister of State knows its case - the necessary funding can be put in place without an argument. This would mean that all the stress and trauma that goes with all engaging in public action and activity in respect of the shortfall in funding for those being cared for would be done away with. If my suggestion were followed, each entity to which I have referred would know what it is going to receive and that would allow it to plan accordingly.

Photo of Kathleen LynchKathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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Before I give the Deputy the official response, I wish to point out that there was no reference in the Topical Issue he tabled to St. Patrick's or Tír na nÓg.

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is the same example. It is the same issue.

Photo of Kathleen LynchKathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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I hope the Deputy understands that I cannot reply to that because I did not have any notice of it.

The Deputy will need to understand that.

I thank Deputy McGuinness for raising this issue. I am pleased to outline the position on the Camphill and L’Arche organisations. As an aside, I wish to say that the Minister of State, Deputy Ann Phelan, has been bending my ear on the issue of Camphill and L’Arche in Kilkenny in recent weeks.

4:45 pm

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State has made her political point.

Photo of Kathleen LynchKathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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I very much acknowledge the important contribution that Camphill communities, with the support of the Health Service Executive, have made to providing services for people with disabilities across 17 centres in Ireland over the years. The HSE is acutely aware of the resource shortfall presented by Camphill and is currently engaging with it to develop a set of proposals to resolve the challenges over an agreed period of time. This includes a commitment to supporting the organisation to reconfigure the current model of service and funding arrangements to a more sustainable model, while still maintaining the particular ethos of the service. I believe the ethos in this case is very important.

The HSE recognises the volunteer nature of the service model in Camphill. Over the recent years of austerity where funding reductions were necessary, the HSE kept the reductions in funding to Camphill to a minimum, as with other similar volunteer-type services. It is my understanding that the current challenges facing Camphill have arisen in the context of implementation of the national standards for residential care introduced in late 2013 which are regulated by the Health Information and Quality Authority. I am aware that some of the 17 Camphill communities have experienced particular challenges in achieving compliance and that others have progressed well. The HSE will continue to collaborate with HIQA and the Camphill communities to achieve full compliance in all centres over the coming years as resources become available.

The HSE is also aware of the financial challenges facing L’Arche services in Callan, County Kilkenny, at this time and have been in ongoing contact with the management of L’Arche over recent weeks and months in an effort to find a solution to these difficulties. I am aware that these difficulties stem from compliance issues with the regulatory environment, which require that the model of service previously provided by L’Arche be reviewed and enhanced.

The HSE has been working with all voluntary service providers on improving compliance during 2015, addressing the areas of highest risk as a priority. These efforts will continue in 2016 and preparation of the HSE’s service and operational plans will be underpinned by a focus on making the best use of the resource invested in disability services.

I assure the Deputy that the HSE remains committed to working with the Camphill and L’Arche organisations, and to be as supportive as possible within current financial constraints. I also assure service users and their families that the HSE will concentrate all its efforts on the continued provision of services in the local community and that work is ongoing with those affected to resolve the current difficulties.

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is the greatest example of political waffle I have heard in this House for a long time and the Minister of State knows it. Her response merely describes what the issue is and does not in any way attempt to answer the question I put on behalf of the parents of those using the service.

The HSE gave a commitment and figures for funding have been discussed. In her answer the Minister of State has refused to even deal with it. The only point she made with confidence is that somebody is bending her ear. I can tell her that the ears of the HSE have been bent and yet it has not responded in the way that I would expect. It is dealing with the vulnerable and those who are in need of the service. They need a commitment from the HSE to tell them that they will have the money before the end of the year and to tell them that the money they require for next year will be there for them. Can the Minister of State not address that question and at least tell them so that they can take the anxiety out of their lives? It would also take the anxiety out of the lives of those who volunteer to help and contribute to Camphill, L'Arche, Tír na nÓg, and all the others who are trying to ensure they get the best for the clients they have.

It is regrettable. I cannot find words to describe it. It is an avoidance of the issue and failing to addressing what is a real concern for parents. The Minister of State could have used the opportunity to announce that it was at an advanced stage and tell them when they will get the money.

Photo of Joanna TuffyJoanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Deputy-----

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Instead she chooses to waffle nonsense in this House. The Minister of State knows that more than more most in the House because when she was in opposition she took a different kind of stance. That is not an acceptable answer. These are not her words; they are words from the civil servants.

Photo of Kathleen LynchKathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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The Deputy's sense of outrage is exactly the same about every situation he addresses in this House, whether it is in the Committee of Public Accounts-----

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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No, it is not. I reject that. I have it here in writing to the HSE - that same sense of outrage.

Photo of Kathleen LynchKathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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Excuse me, Chairman, do I have the right to speak?

Photo of Joanna TuffyJoanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Well------

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is shocking that the Minister of State would try to make it a political issue.

Photo of Joanna TuffyJoanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Deputy-----

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State should give them the money.

Photo of Joanna TuffyJoanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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The Deputy and Minister of State are supposed to make their remarks through the Chair and should not speak to each other.

Photo of Kathleen LynchKathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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I am addressing you, Chairman. Am I allowed to speak? I did not interrupt the Deputy.

Photo of Joanna TuffyJoanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Just refer to the Deputy and do not speak directly to him.

Photo of Kathleen LynchKathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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The Deputy's sense of outrage and attitude to everything is exactly the same. Every time I hear him, regardless of the issue, his tone is the same and his sense of outrage is the same. Outrage does not solve problems.

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Nor does the Minister of State.

Photo of Joanna TuffyJoanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Sorry, Deputy, we will have one speaker at a time.

Photo of Kathleen LynchKathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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The Deputy should try to have a little bit of respect. I know he does not do it often, but he should try it on this occasion.

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State should stop with the old blather.

Photo of Kathleen LynchKathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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It usually works and he should try it on this occasion.

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State should answer the question.

Photo of Kathleen LynchKathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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We are in negotiations. We are very conscious that there are difficulties and we are equally conscious that these people provide an incredible service and we do not want to lose that service. The Deputy's outrage and lack of respect is not doing them any good.

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State should pay them the money that she promised them. Her respect for them is not much either.