Clare Daly (Dublin North, United Left)
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8. To ask the Minister for Defence the reason Defence Forces personnel were in contact with a controversial Italian surveillance company (details supplied); the extent of the contact; and by whom it was authorised. [34262/15]

Clare Daly (Dublin North, United Left)
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This relates to the leaked documents that emerged over the summer about contact between the Defence Forces and the controversial Italian company Hacking Team, a well-known surveillance software company used by governments to tap into phones, computers and so on. What possible contracts did the Irish Defence Forces want to achieve from their dealings with Hacking Team, who was involved in negotiations, what were they looking for and how much was the Government going to spend?

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The core role of the Defence Forces is to contribute to the security of the State. Military intelligence contributes assessments in respect of State security and the safety and security of the Defence Forces’ personnel deployed overseas on peace support operations and liaises with An Garda Síochána as appropriate on matters of common concern. In relation to cyber-security, the primary focus of the Defence Forces is the protection of military networks. The Defence Forces are also assisting in the national response on cyber-security, working under the leadership of the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources.

In order to deliver effectively on behalf of the State in this regard, the Defence Forces are required to develop and maintain the necessary capabilities. It is not appropriate, for operational security reasons, to divulge the details of how these capabilities are developed and maintained. I can confirm, however, that no services were purchased by the Defence Forces from the company in question.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, United Left)
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The fact that nothing was purchased misses the key point. Why would the Irish Defence Forces deal with a company that has a very dubious international reputation? This company was named in 2012 by Reporters Without Borders as one of the corporate enemies of the Internet. It has been accused by the Citizen Lab, a digital rights group, of human rights abuses, of using and transferring software that was used to repress minority and dissident groups, journalists and so on in Africa and the Middle East. Their clients include European countries, the FBI, the US Drug Enforcement Agency, Egypt, Ethiopia, Morocco, Nigeria and Saudi Arabia. These are the clients this company deals with. The Minister is telling us it was to do with developing and maintaining operational capabilities, but he is not giving us any details. No matter what the Government is buying, why it would go to a company like that is beyond me and the Minister could tell us more.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I am sure I could tell Deputy Daly more, but there are some things I do not tell her in respect of intelligence. Anybody who understands how intelligence works would understand that. We have not done business with this company. Despite what Deputy Daly is trying to portray, we are not doing business with this company. This company is, by the way, doing business all over the world, with many European and western countries, as well as some of the countries Deputy Daly has referred to. Presumably it is out there in the market, selling its services, its products and its technology. We have decided not to purchase from it. That decision was made by the Defence Forces. However, the responsibility of the intelligence element of defence is to make sure people like me and others who have to make decisions in respect of security questions are properly informed. That is as much as I am willing to say in terms of the broader responsibilities relating to intelligence. On the company concerned, we are not doing business with it.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, United Left)
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The point is that the Minister was and he has brushed it off-----

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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No, we were not.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, United Left)
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-----saying "we decided not to purchase in the end". The correspondence, which was leaked and which is not being disputed, referred to multiple contacts with this company and a number of meetings. Who was at those meetings? At what level were they? Even if the Minister cannot tell us specifically what the Defence Forces were looking to purchase, we are entitled to a little more detail than he has given us because it is a company about which serious concerns have been raised internationally. Warnings went out about the conduct of only five private sector companies and this happened to be one of them. I would like to know at what level inside the Defence Forces somebody thought it was a good idea for us to do business with them. I know the Minister cannot tell us everything and I am not sure whether he knows everything, but there is a contradiction between talking about transparency and so on and then seeking cover behind the old reliable, national security. We are entitled to more and the fact that nothing was bought is irrelevant.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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It is not irrelevant. Deputy Daly keeps saying we are doing business with this company, but we are not.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, United Left)
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There were no meetings, then.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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There is an obligation on the Defence Forces to make sure they are aware of all the equipment that is out there and how it works and to ensure that we have the best technology available to do a job we need to do. They have an obligation to ensure we have an appropriate intelligence infrastructure in Ireland to give me and others the information that is needed to make informed decisions on sensitive and sometimes very confidential security matters. Most people understand that.