Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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122. To ask the Minister for Education and Skills the cost of reducing the primary school pupil-teacher ratio by one point for each of the next five years, accounting for rising demographics; and the cost of additional school and classroom building to cater for reduced class sizes during each of these years. [34191/15]

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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The full-year cost of a one-point reduction to the primary staffing schedule is estimated to be €18 million. Therefore, the full-year cost of a five-point reduction would increase the annual primary teacher pay costs by an estimated €90 million per annum. Across the five-year period of reduction, the cumulative increase in pay provision is estimated at €270 million. The precise impact at individual school level is more difficult to predict in terms of capital requirements.

A change in the staffing schedule may not always give rise to the appointment of an additional teacher and, therefore, the provision of new classroom. In areas of stable or falling pupil enrolment numbers, schools may already have a spare classroom or be in a position to convert an existing space into a classroom. Where a new classroom build is required the capital cost is almost €135,000 per classroom.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister indicated that the cost of reducing the pupil-teacher ratio by one point would be €18 million for this year. Based on demographic changes, I expect that the cost of reducing the pupil-teacher ratio by one point every year for the next five years will exceed the €90 million estimate provided by the Minister. The rise in student numbers will result in increased class sizes, which means we must take into account an increase in the student population and the additional classrooms and space that will be needed to achieve a five-point reduction in the pupil-teacher ratio over the lifetime of a Government. To obtain the true figure we need information on the cost of new capital and the actual increase in student numbers based on demographic changes. The Minister's €90 million figure is not correct.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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In terms of the capital allocation and based on demographic changes, we expect we will need 19,000 more places in primary schools and 43,000 more places in post-primary schools over the next six years.

I acknowledge the Deputy is asking about a five-year period, but we have done the figures for six because that is the length of the capital programme. That is the demographic rise. In terms of the capital costs for classrooms, I have already answered in a way, but it is hard to assess. If schools have spare capacity, one will not need to build more classrooms. One does not need a new classroom unless the class has to divide in two depending on the numbers. It is difficult to give the Deputy an actual figure, but we can probably carry out an assessment to give him as close a figure as we can get. However, as we would need to look at the circumstances of every school in the country in terms of spare provision, we do not have a precise figure on the capital cost.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is an exercise we should undertake. All the evidence-based research suggests that smaller class size equates to greater educational output. As a State with one of the highest pupil-teacher ratios in Europe, we must move to a policy of reducing class size. The additional places the Minister refers to over the next six years will only meet the demographic rise. I am trying to show that it is not just about the demographics. While more students are coming on stream who must be catered for with attendant capital costs, the Minister's answer indicates that the Department has no idea of the capital and teacher post allocation costs of implementing the policy to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio. Those are the figures we need. How can we strive to have smaller class sizes if we do not have that vital information?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I take the Deputy's point but to give him an example, a school with 178 pupils could be in a position to enrol up to 26 more pupils without triggering an additional teaching post. If the same eight-teacher school had an enrolment of 204 pupils, it would only take one pupil to trigger the appointment of an additional teacher. Whether a school can get a new teacher depends on how close it is to the next point. That changes from year to year in different schools. We could probably get the likely cost for the Deputy for a particular point in time, but that could change depending on population movement. We can probably get him an estimated figure, but it will not be absolutely accurate regarding the point when one would spend the money.