Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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4. To ask the Tánaiste and Minister for Social Protection her plans to reduce relative and absolute poverty rates; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [33330/15]

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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I raise this question to ascertain what progress the Government has made in reducing the levels of poverty after social transfers.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Taking the measure of income inequality used internationally by economists such as Paul Krugman and Joseph Stiglitz, the Gini coefficient, Ireland does extremely well. Ireland has a level of inequality that is below the average in the European Union and the 28 OECD countries, as well as the United States and the United Kingdom. In other words, we have less inequality in Ireland, notwithstanding the biggest economic crash in our history, than the average of European Union and OECD countries. It is far below that of the United States. According to EUROSTAT, the Gini coefficient was 30 in Ireland in 2013, compared with a European average of 30.5. This is a reflection of both our highly progressive tax system and the strength and depth of Ireland’s social protection system.

Relative poverty is measured through the at-risk-of-poverty indicator. EUROSTAT data indicates that Ireland’s at-risk-of-poverty rate in 2013, the last figures we have from the survey on income and living conditions, SILC, and which was based on data from the height of the crisis in 2012, was 14.1%,. That is better than the EU average, where the proportion at risk of poverty is 16.6%. Ireland has the seventh lowest at-risk-of-poverty rate of the 28 EU member states. A key reason for Ireland’s low at-risk-of-poverty rate is social transfers. In 2013, social transfers, excluding pensions, lifted almost a quarter of the population out of relative income poverty. Ireland is the best-performing EU member state in reducing poverty through social transfers, and this reflects the Government decision not to reduce core welfare rates as part of the troika programme.

Looking forward, I believe that growing employment and supporting people back to work will have the greatest impact on poverty. The Government’s twin employment strategies of the Action Plan for Jobs and Pathways to Work are reaping rewards as Ireland’s recovery continues to strengthen, with more than 110,000 additional people returning to work and unemployment falling by a third. We have much to do in this area but we are just behind the likes of Austria, Sweden and Denmark. That we have the seventh lowest level of inequality in the EU is a very important achievement.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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I did not ask the Minister about inequality or whether we were 0.5% percent above the OECD average. I am asking the Minister about levels of poverty in this country. I accept the latest figures are 18 months to two years out of date but they were produced by the Central Statistics Office, CSO. They indicate that 376,000 people in this country, or 8.2%, were living in consistent poverty, and although the poverty line had fallen by 16%, nearly one in seven people was at risk of poverty. The data also demonstrate that over 30% of the population was experiencing deprivation, meaning they were deprived of the basic essentials of life, such as a warm winter coat or adequate heating. I realise the CSO figures are somewhat out of date but has the Minister any measurement on progress made since the period relating to those published figures?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We can be clear about the figures. The OECD report of 15 September is in the Dáil library and contains Ireland's ratings. It indicates that we rate really well, particularly given the incredibly destroyed economy that Fianna Fáil left us, together with the figure when we entered office of 330,000 people without work. The biggest element in poverty is people, particularly of working age, not having access to a paid job at a reasonable rate of pay for a reasonable number of hours. That causes more poverty than anything else. I am happy to say we now have 130,000 extra jobs since the Government came to office.

The at-risk-of-poverty rate fell from 16.5% in 2012 to 15.2% in 2013. Using EUROSTAT data, Ireland's at-risk-of-poverty rate of 14.1% was well below the EU average of 16.6% in 2013. I do not have later data than that with respect to national statistics. That is done by the CSO, based on a very wide range of interviews of significant numbers of people.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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From my interaction with constituents, which I maintain on a pretty regular basis, it does not seem that people are very much interested in history. They want to know what the Tánaiste, as leader of the so-called socialist party in Government, has done to combat poverty levels in this country. The latest CSO figures indicate that in rural Ireland - forgotten Ireland - 350,000 people were at risk of poverty. That means the last time poverty risk was measured in rural Ireland, 350,000 people were living on incomes of less than €10,500 per annum. The study also demonstrated that in rural Ireland, 560,000 people were without facilities that would be considered reasonable and normal in a decent society, such as the ability to go out for a night, heat their houses adequately and replace worn-out furniture, etc.

On 25 September 2012, exactly four years ago - the Government has been in office for that period - the Minister told me that the poverty targets were revised as one of the first actions of the Government. One revised target was to reduce consistent poverty to 4% by 2016. The latest figures for this indicate it is at 8.2%, although they are a bit out of date. Does the Minister believe it is a realistic ambition to achieve that target of a 4% level of consistent poverty by 2016, which is just a few months away?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I suppose the worst attack made on people at risk of poverty was by Fianna Fáil when it cut social welfare weekly rates.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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No, we want to know what the Government is doing.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Fianna Fáil cut weekly social welfare rates.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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This Government has been cutting since it came in.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It made the decision. It could have made other decisions.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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The Government has taken more from social welfare than it has put back in.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The previous Government cut weekly social welfare rates by a total of €16.40.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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This Government has cut consistently in a sneaky, underhand way, and everybody now sees through it.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, please.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That Government cut the social welfare rate for carers-----

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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Answer the question.

Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Listen to the answer.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----and people on the blind pension by €16.40.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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A Cheann Comhairle, on a point of order. Is there not-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am not here to answer questions. I am here to see to it that the Deputy can ask a question of the Tánaiste.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Yes, and I have said that the most-----

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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I understand and I agree with the Ceann Comhairle.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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There are other Deputies-----

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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It is the Minister's job to answer questions.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are now over time by-----

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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I have asked a direct question so could I get a direct answer without the gobbledegook?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I am saying-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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On this question alone, so far, we are over-----

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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This is what I am saying.

Deputy O'Dea asked about poverty-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy O'Dea should resume his seat.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----and I said the worst thing that happened-----

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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I am asking the Tánaiste about poverty today and what the Government is doing.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I apologise to the Tánaiste. The Deputy is not listening.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----in terms of people becoming poor in Ireland-----

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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We do not need the history. We want to know what the Government is doing.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----was, first of all, that 300,000 people lost their jobs by the time Fianna Fáil left office.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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Is it going to reach the target?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy O'Dea should stay quiet.

Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Allow the Tánaiste to answer.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Second, it cut things such as carers' allowance and the blind pension by €16.40 a week. That is its legacy-----

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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Has this Government increased it?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I have to move on to question No. 5.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That is its legacy, its testament. In terms of how we-----

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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This Government left it as it stood.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please, Deputy O'Dea.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----change things for people for the better, the first and the most important thing-----

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Government reach the target?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----is that we get as many people of working age as possible back to work.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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Into yellow-pack, low-paid jobs.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The second thing is that we protect people who are vulnerable-----

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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Zero-hour contracts.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----particularly pensioners on fixed incomes, from any reductions in their core weekly payments. That is what we have done since we came into government.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are over time.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We made different choices to Fianna Fáil.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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This Government made the choice to leave 2% in consistent poverty. Those are the choices this Government has made.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We made different choices to Fianna Fáil but, as a consequence-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Tánaiste should finish up.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----we have got so many people back to work and we have protected people's pensions.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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And the Tánaiste's party calls itself the Labour Party.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please respect the Chair, who is trying to see that it is fair to everybody. I call Deputy Joan Collins.

Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Has Deputy O'Dea forgotten his party reduced the minimum wage?

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste never answered the question. Does she think the Government will reach the 4% target?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Hold on a second, there are other Deputies waiting for their questions. We are already over time on priority questions. Please adhere to the Chair's rulings.