Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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2. To ask the Minister for Environment, Community and Local Government his views on the Irish Congress of Trade Unions position regarding water charges and a referendum to ensure that water services are not privatised. [29232/15]

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the Minister's position regarding the position taken by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU, recently at its conference regarding water charges and the need for a referendum to ensure that water charges are not privatised?

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I note the comments of ICTU. The Water Services Act 2013 provided for the establishment of Irish Water as a subsidiary of Bord Gáis Éireann, now Ervia, conforming to the conditions contained in the Act and registered under the Companies Acts.

Section 5 of the Water Services Act 2013, as amended by Section 46 of the Water Services (No. 2) Act 2013, prohibits each of the shareholders of Irish Water – the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, the Minister for Finance and Ervia - from disposing of its shareholding in Irish Water and thus places a statutory prohibition on the privatisation of Irish Water. To further strengthen this protection of the State’s ownership of the company, section 2 of the Water Services Act 2014 provides that in the highly unlikely event of any proposal for legislation being brought forward at any future stage that would involve a change in the State ownership of Irish Water, the matter would have to be put to a plebiscite of the people. Accordingly, an amendment to the Constitution to prevent the privatisation of Irish Water is not necessary.

Section 21 of the Water Services Act (No. 2) 2013 provides that Irish Water is required to charge customers for the provision by it of water services and that customers of Irish Water are required to pay the charges. The charges are subject to the approval of the Commission for Energy Regulation. The Water Services Act 2014 provides that the maximum charge for a household will be €160 for a household with one adult and €260 for other households until the end of 2018. Provision is also made for charges to continue to be capped thereafter. I am satisfied that this charging structure provides a clear, certain and affordable way of ensuring that the necessary investment can be secured for our vital water services infrastructure.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister's reply missed the point. The Minister will be aware that ICTU, the body representing organised labour in this State, took a very strong position in Ennis and called for the abolition of water charges. It also supported the position I put forward in a Bill earlier this year regarding having a referendum to prevent the privatisation of water services unless the people so decided. I accept that it was put in legislation and that this is a step in the right direction, which was taken under huge pressure. However, that can be changed, as the Minister knows. The next Government, if it is so willed, can do that. I would not advise it to do so, but it could. That shows there is broad support from workers who have really taken a hit in the last four or five years-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Question, please.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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-----in terms of the universal social charge and a number of other charges, taxes, extra pension levies and everything else. What they are saying now is that this is an extra taxation. They really want water charges abolished.

In the reply, do we get one minute or two minutes?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I will let the Deputy back in again.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is it one minute or two minutes?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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One minute.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I note ICTU's comments in Ennis. I also note that there was a broad discussion on it and it was not unanimous. There were many different discussions and different views on it, particularly from many different unions, one of which I am a member of. Under no circumstances will Irish Water ever be privatised. The provisions are in place to ensure that does not happen. As a member of Government, I have to take cognisance of legal advice at all times from the Attorney General. We have put in place enough checks and balances to ensure that in the very unlikely event that somebody else sitting over here proposed to do that, it would not be possible. I believe the people are satisfied with that.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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From a political point of view, this must be embarrassing. I heard what the Minister said about being a member of one of the unions. The facts are that here we have organised labour coming out strongly on this matter. Very few decisions are unanimous. Ordinary workers are seeing that they have taken a huge hit and here is another hit. Regarding the battle of hearts and minds, there is a problem here for the Government. Looking at the figures released yesterday, it does not matter how it is dressed up, just over four out of ten have paid.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please put a question. It is Question Time.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Irish Water has received a large subvention. How can the Minister give a guarantee that Irish Water cannot ever be privatised? All it needs is a change in legislation. Eircom, or Telecom, as it was then called, was fattened up by public subvention in the same way as Irish Water is now. That is the fear. We should have a referendum.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I have outlined on numerous occasions in this House with the Deputy why the chances of Irish Water being privatised are nil. He can say what he wants. I have heard him numerous times saying that a future Government could just change the legislation. However, it would also have to decide to take away a decision to put it to the will of the people. It would be some Government that would actually do that. When one sits on this side of the House, one has to take legal advice on all occasions on decisions like this. As a Government, we have put in place every possible check and balance to guarantee that this will not happen. I look around both here and in the Seanad and I have not seen many people walk through these doors who would advocate doing what Deputy Stanley just said could happen, privatising Irish Water.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I have seen them.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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If they did, I am not sure they know what they are talking about privatising. Is it water in the ground or Irish Water? What is it? That is the baseline from where he is starting. He has to define something. I am not even sure that is possible.