Dáil debates
Thursday, 16 July 2015
Leaders’ Questions
11:40 am
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste will be aware there has been a massive investment in the post office network for several years. I am sure she will acknowledge that this happened primarily during the lifetime of the previous Government. Yes, some of those running post offices took the decision when this upgrading was being carried out to take voluntary redundancy which resulted in closures.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Over 400 post offices were closed under the previous Government.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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There are 1,150 post offices across the country in which 3,700 people are employed. What is happening is up to the Government and its policies. Post offices play a vital part in communities and are a serious focal point for the elderly and families living in rural areas.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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How is the Deputy’s local post office going?
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, may I have the floor, please? I am raising a serious issue.
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has the floor.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Banks have closed in many smaller towns. Garda stations have also been closed and sold. Post offices have to be protected and enhanced. Department of Social Protection payments account for 30% of the business of the post office network. The spin-off value of people buying other items is as high as 50%. The contract for making social protection payments is worth €25 million per annum to post offices.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is not; it is twice that amount.
Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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If Deputy Robert Troy cannot get his figures right, it is not surprising that Fianna Fáil broke the country.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste will have an opportunity to respond. Whether it is accepted by her, there is genuine concern among postmasters that their businesses will end up being closed, mainly due to the fact that the Department of Social Protection is issuing forms instructing people to change their method of collection to their bank accounts.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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One will not be even be able to buy a stamp soon.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The concerns of postmasters have been independently verified in a report commissioned from Grant Thornton in 2014. The Tánaiste has taken many policy decisions which have irked particular groups across the country.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Many decisions.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Her decision, however, to send forms to people to select bank accounts in which to receive social protection payments threatens to lead to the closure of up to 400 post offices.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Sabotage.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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What about the 400 Fianna Fáil closed?
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Postmasters are simply asking for a level playing field, but they are not getting it. The Tánaiste is undermining the future and viability of post offices. Will she confirm that it is the Government’s intention to maintain the current network at 1,150 post offices? Will it invest the much needed funding to allow post offices to develop an electronic transaction account which will afford people the option of receiving and transacting social welfare payments in the post office, either electronically or by cash? Will she confirm that she will meet the Irish Postmasters Union as it has requested? Two months ago she said she would change the social welfare forms that requested social welfare recipients to change to bank accounts. Today the very same forms are on the Department’s website. Will she instruct her officials to take them down and ensure new forms are sent that will not recommend that people receive their social welfare payments electronically?
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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I did not think the Deputy had such neck.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I am aware that quite a number of Deputies and their families have an interest in post offices. I hope any Member who has a direct commercial interest in a post office will actually let us know.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has declared it already.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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It was declared in the register of Members’ interests and during the general election.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Is the Deputy also a postmaster?
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste should answer the question.
Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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It is disgraceful. She should answer the question.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I am just asking in the interests of debate.
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Please, Deputies, this is Leaders’ Questions.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste is a disgrace.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I asked because I am aware that Deputy Robert Troy has a long-standing interest in post offices.
Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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He has declared it in this House.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste is a disgrace.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I am just asking if there is a commercial interest.
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Please stop, as we cannot hear the reply.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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When Fianna Fáil was in government, it closed 197 post offices.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Tell the truth.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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In fairness, Deputy Robert Troy said many were voluntary decisions made by postmasters because, for instance, a family member was retiring and no one else wanted to take on the job. Of the 25 closures during the Government’s tenure, almost all have been for that exact reason. Like other Deputies, I, too, was involved in my constituency in efforts to recruit a new postmaster or postmistress when one retired. That is a familiar story in the post office system, of which all Members will be aware. It might have escaped Deputy Robert Troy’s attention that the contract for services with the Department of Social Protection is worth €50 million per annum. He suggested it was only worth half of that amount.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Tánaiste is trying to undermine them - sabotage.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The figure is €50 million and it is higher when other departmental services supplied through the post office network are taken into account. To suggest it is half that figure is pretty poor counting by somebody involved in the post office network. That is why I asked Deputy Robert Troy if he had a personal awareness and familiarity with the post office system. I would have expected him not just to have a researcher’s brief but also some personal knowledge. Post offices play an important role in urban and rural communities.
They provide important services, particularly for people who do not actually have a formal bank account. It is not just past Fianna Fáil taoisigh who do not have a formal bank account. It is actually quite a lot of other people in this country.
11:50 am
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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My goodness.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Up to 200,000 people in this country do not have a formal bank account.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Wonder Woman is back today.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Leave Bertie out of it.
Ray Butler (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Listen.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Wonder Woman is back.
Noel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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Stop breaking the peace. Be quiet.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Let me say as Minister for Social Protection that, in that context, the Department of Social Protection relies on the post office system to make payments to the people who do not have bank accounts, and we will continue to rely on it.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Tánaiste is telling them all to take their money away.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We also require the post office to be available for people-----
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Tánaiste is undermining post offices.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----to collect their social welfare jobseeker's payments through the post office and turn up in person to collect them. It is for that reason that the post office has a very large and very valuable contract with the Department of Social Protection, worth more than €50 million. Fianna Fáil seems unable to count because it is suggesting that it is worth less than half of that. So let us get our facts right.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The Government is not able to count regarding Irish Water.
John Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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What about the form?
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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They are the first few facts-----
John Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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What about Deputy Troy's question?
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----that I would like to give to Deputy Troy.
Noel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Troy can ask a supplementary question. He has one minute.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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It ill behoves the Tánaiste to try to take cheap shots at me.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Hear, hear.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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It is a matter of fact that I have a post office in my constituency.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I declared it on the list of Members' interests. I have declared it umpteen times on the floor of this House.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I was just questioning why the Deputy's facts were so wrong.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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No. What the Tánaiste is trying to do is make it personal.
Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.
Noel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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When you are explaining, you are losing.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Post office staff are listening to this debate.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste made it personal for lone parents.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Those staff want answers. I want answers on behalf of the 3,700 people employed in the post office network across the country.
Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Hear, hear.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Not cheap shots.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I have asked a number of questions this morning, but the Tánaiste has not answered one.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Correct.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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In her typical style-----
Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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The Deputy was factually incorrect with his questions.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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-----she has come in and tried to talk the topic down.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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This is supposed to be a supplementary question.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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It does not do her justice that she does not answer the questions.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The minute is up.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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We are asking questions on behalf of the people whom we represent.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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We are representatives to Dáil Éireann.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I will ask the questions again. Will the Government commit to maintaining the current network of 1,150 post offices?
John Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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A simple question.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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It is a simple "Yes" or "No" question. Will the Tánaiste commit to meeting the Irish Postmasters Union-----
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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It is too bad Fianna Fáil closed them all.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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-----to work through its six-point plan-----
John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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What about lone parents?
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Fianna Fáil is the crowd that closed all of the post offices.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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-----to save the post office network, yes or no?
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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What about the lone parents?
John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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What about lone parents?
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Withdraw the letters.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Tánaiste-----
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry, but will Deputies please lower the noise level?
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Deputy Stagg is having a go.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Government commit to investing in the development of the post office-based electronic transaction account, yes or no?
John Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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What about the form?
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Finally, will the Tánaiste honour her commitment of two months ago when she said that the forms would be taken down and replaced? That has not happened. As of this morning, the old forms are still on the Department's website. I am aware of this because I am a postmaster and sent back to the Tánaiste and her Department the old forms that every post office across the length and breadth of this country still had.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Special delivery.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Those forms request, direct and recommend that people change from having their payments made through post offices to through banks. Will the Tánaiste live up to her commitment and ensure that those promises are maintained?
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste to reply.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I am happy to say that-----
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Answer the questions today.
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Please, Deputy.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----my Department provides over €50 million worth of business to the post office system in Ireland.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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We heard that already. Answer the question.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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There are more than 1,100 post offices.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is its largest single customer.
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, Deputies.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Answer the questions.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Normally, when entities have a significant and important customer-----
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste is not going to answer the questions, as usual.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----I expect the people who are being paid-----
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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It is not just on the "Late Late Show" that she does not answer questions. It is in here as well.
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy, please.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----for the service to give a good service to the people who use the post offices. That is what the people who use the post offices want. The biggest problem is the fact that so few people who use post offices have a full bank account. The purpose of the recent report by Mr. Bobby Kerr and the recent examination under the auspices of the Minister of State for rural affairs was, in fact, to find a pathway that would provide an efficient and a profitable service, both for the customers and for the people-----
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Tánaiste will be getting her pathway in the next few days.
Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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What about the forms?
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----who run and who work in the post offices.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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She will get a P45.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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You must be getting all of the shouts out today because you are worried that you will miss them for the next few weeks,-----
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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What about the forms? Come on.
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputies, please stop.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Tánaiste answer the questions that I asked her, please?
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----so give it a rest.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I will shout any day and give you a piece of my mind. That will be your pathway.
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputies, stop.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Your pathway is the P45 pathway.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We know you.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Go get ready.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We know you.
Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Calm down.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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In relation to-----
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste might answer the questions that were asked of her.
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputies, please.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Calm down, Mattie.
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste to conclude. Quiet, please.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Regarding the standard bank account,-----
Noel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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Did you use the post office to pay the court fines, Mattie?
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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What did you say?
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----we have put forward detailed-----
Noel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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Did you use the post office to pay the courts?
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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You do not have a clue.
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Please, Deputies.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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------proposals to the Minister for Finance. So has the Kerr report.
Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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The answer must be "No", then.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I broadly support the recommendations made in the Kerr report.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Government make the investment, yes or no?
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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No answer.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I think they make a lot of sense.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Pathway.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Deputy Troy spoke a few moments ago as a postmaster. Maybe he will tell us what the postmasters are going to bring to the table,-----
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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They have-----
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----seeing as how he is standing-----
John Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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What about the form being withdrawn?
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I am asking the Tánaiste to meet them.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----here speaking on behalf of them.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Tánaiste meet them?
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Quiet, please.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
So, in relation to-----
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will meet them with the Tánaiste.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
-----the forms, this is another issue-----
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Will the Tánaiste meet them, yes or no?
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Please, Deputy.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Will the Tánaiste meet them, yes or no?
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry, but the Tánaiste has the floor.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----that the Deputy is extremely familiar with, which is, all of the forms that relate to social welfare payments are designed and redesigned with a couple of objectives in mind, which is why they take quite a time to design and redesign.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Take a long time?
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Paid consultants.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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One is to prevent fraud and the other is to ensure accuracy and simplicity in so far as a long form for a pension application-----
Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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It would be very simple.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----can be made as simple as possible.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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It did not take the Labour Party too long to take defected members down from its website, so-----
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy, please.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is actually being done at the moment.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
-----why will the Tánaiste not take the form down from the Department's website?
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
As a postmaster, Deputy Troy seems to be taking an attitude whereby he does not want people who have bank accounts to actually-----
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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No, he wants choice.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----be able to use their bank account.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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He wants fair choice.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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He wants them, because he is a business owner in a post office,-----
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I want choice.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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------to only be allowed to queue up at the post office.
Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste told them to go to the banks.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That is not right, Deputy Troy.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste is not playing-----
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Stop making a cause for the banks.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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One actually has to provide a bank account system that the post offices can use.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Tánaiste meet them?
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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As a postmaster, Deputy Troy will have to co-operate with that.
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you. I now call Deputy McDonald.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Tánaiste going to meet them?
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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As a postmaster, Deputy Troy is going to have to co-operate.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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She is a complete bluffer. She never answers a question.
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Order.
Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Is Deputy Mattie McGrath going to be a Fianna Fáil candidate?
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Order, please.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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One cannot even buy a stamp these days.
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Please, Deputy McDonald has the floor.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yesterday, Irish Water was forced to admit that fewer than half of householders were paying the Government's water tax. The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Kelly, the Tánaiste's deputy leader,-----
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Who wants to be leader.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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-----has insisted that the €30.5 million collected to date of a projected income of €66.8 million was "a good start". I do not know what planet the Minister is living on, but his delusional response to the overwhelming rejection of water charges further discredits the Government. We learned today that, with the failure of the Government's intimidation and threats, Irish Water has proposed a campaign of direct harassment of struggling families. It proposes to bombard thousands of households-----
Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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Sinn Féin would know about that.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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-----by telephone in a desperate, last ditch attempt-----
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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-----to get them to sign up to water charges. This move is pathetic.
I raised with the Taoiseach yesterday all of these issues. How does Irish Water expect to attract investment with such a derisory level of compliance with the Government's charge? According to one economist, at least 80% of householders would need to pay if the company were to borrow at competitive rates. That is not going to happen. The Government's water tax has been roundly and comprehensively rejected. The Tánaiste has heard what people are saying. Now, it is time to act. Abolish the charges. Abolish Irish Water.
This morning in Dublin Castle, the Tánaiste claimed, mar dhea, that she wanted to listen to people's views regarding the direction of economic policy. I do not know if that was some sort of joke, but if it was, no one is laughing. Clearly, she has no intention of listening to anyone outside the Government about its discredited and shambolic water policy. The people have spoken loudly, repeatedly and clearly. They have flatly rejected its water tax.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Did Deputy McDonald pay?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Government's figures for the Irish Water quango do not add up. It is time that she face this reality. The water tax is finished. Will the Tánaiste and the Labour Party heed this message?
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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When I spoke this morning in Dublin Castle to a very wide group of people from the trade union movement, from the business movement and from the voluntary and advocacy organisations in Ireland, big and small, I talked about a future that we would all put together for Ireland that would give us a good outlook for people who were older and retired, for younger people and for families with children.
The feedback was very strong and it is a vision people in Ireland wanted, with everyone back at work-----
12:00 pm
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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On slave wages.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----the country investing in schools and hospitals and a water system that produces safe clean water. I cannot understand why Sinn Féin's policy is to bankrupt Irish Water and to potentially seek to bankrupt the Irish State, as it advocated some six or seven years ago when it wanted this country to default and do what some countries have, unfortunately, experienced in recent times. If we are to fulfil the vision of this morning in Dublin Castle, of getting our people back to work and building infrastructure, clean water is critical to that. Whether Sinn Féin likes it or not we have taken the water supply away from over 30 councils-----
Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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To privatise it.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----who all dealt with it in a different way and we have brought it together into a national utility, like the ESB or Bord Gáis, identifying leaks and lead pipes, issues which county councils around the country had sat on for years and not addressed. We have already begun to bring to an end to the scandal of boil water notices in County Roscommon, which is an enormous achievement that was not achievable by a local authority on its own.
John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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If the Government had given €500 million to local authorities they would have done it.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We want to build a tourism industry, to attract foreign direct investment and build local Irish businesses. Above all, we want our farmers and our agriculture industry to prosper and we need good clean water for all those things, as well as for ourselves, our children and our grandchildren. Sinn Féin's vision is to pretend that instead of a functioning utility, we can load €800 million onto income tax and taxes on workers this year.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Government is both subsidising and charging and it is still not fixing the leaks.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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What we are proposing in the budget is to give workers tax relief, particularly in terms of the USC, and to have a separate system for paying for water at a very moderate rate of €60 net for a single person household and €160 for two adults or more. This has been an extremely difficult debate and I acknowledge that there are people vehemently opposed to the development of Irish Water but there are many people who have paid the charges. I congratulate the hundreds of thousands of families, individuals and households who have done so.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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The Government bullied them into paying.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Government intimidated them.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The billing cycle started relatively recently and I am very confident that people will pay for clean, reliable drinking water that serves their needs from industry to hospital to private home.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am struck by the extent to which the Tánaiste has morphed into a Fine Gael mouthpiece. There is not a sliver of difference between her answer-----
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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At least I am not the mouthpiece of Deputy Adams.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste is admitting, then, that she is the mouthpiece of Fine Gael.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Labour Party, led by the Tánaiste, which came to office on a platform of opposition to water charges for some very obvious reasons, not least that people had suffered so much by way of cutbacks and were struggling to get by, now staunchly defends the indefensible. The Labour Party and the Tánaiste stand shoulder to shoulder with the Taoiseach, Deputy Enda Kenny and tells people they really do not care what their view is, what their struggles are or what their difficulties are - they are going to stick with this unfair charge in any event. The financing model for this utility is now utterly undermined but the Tánaiste is in cloud cuckoo land on that score as well.
The subvention for Irish Water on the State balance sheet in 2015 is €810 million. Fewer than 50% of households have paid up and if the Tánaiste thinks that is going to improve she is wrong as it is not going to happen. Many people will not pay as a matter of principle, as they pay already and oppose moves towards privatisation, but a huge number of people simply cannot pay. This is not about whether or not Sinn Féin likes it, as the Tánaiste would have it. This opposition is beyond any political party or anything we have seen in recent times in this State.
Noel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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Sinn Féin is like Syriza.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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New Democracy is the Fine Gael crowd in Greece.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste should listen to the people as she has promised to do and scrap this scheme. It is not working for the people or for the State's balance sheet. Would the Tánaiste prefer to blindly follow where Deputy Enda Kenny and his Blueshirt colleagues lead her, and insist on a policy that is clearly failing? She disregards lone parents, pickpockets them and leaves them struggling. She then delivers a homily in which she says it is only €3 per week but that does not add up for people who have to run their households. She is persisting with this even though she knows the damage it will do to individuals and families.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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In the forthcoming budget the Government will have room for spending of between €1.2 billion and €1.5 billion. Given where the country has come from, the improvements in both last year's and next year's budget offer us an opportunity to assist everybody in this country.
Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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Did the Government assist lone parents?
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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More important, it will help us get more people back to work because the key to economic recovery is to get people back to work, either in jobs or in self-employment. There are some 4,000 involved in working directly or indirectly in the area of water services. Sinn Féin's proposal for water services is to throw those people out of a job and to bankrupt the provision of proper water services in this country.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Rubbish. This is Alice in Wonderland economics.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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In the forthcoming budget the important thing is to see a shift in favour of people at work or in self-employment with low or middle incomes and to use that for the economic growth that everybody in this country has worked so hard to create. The people have worked so hard to get the country out of the economic difficulties they have borne. We want a recovery dividend and an easing in income taxes on labour so that people, especially families with children, can work and have a lower burden.
We also want a well-structured service sector that provides for absolute essentials. I note that Deputy McDonald did not disagree with me that a good quality water service is essential in a modern economy, as is a good quality sewerage service. Deputy McDonald did not say this could be provided for nothing or magicked out of thin air.
We have a strategy in the Labour Party.
12:10 pm
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am suggesting that the Government should stop screwing struggling families. That is my proposition to the Tánaiste.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We have a strategy in the forthcoming budget to put money back in the pockets of workers while building quality services.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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What about parents who work less than 19 hours?
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Sinn Féin does not even seem to have an economic policy.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It does not have a water policy and it does not have a policy which will put money in workers' pockets and help them go back to work.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The only policies the Tánaiste has are Fine Gael policies.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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What does Sinn Féin want? It seems only to care about soundbites.
Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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The Government certainly is no friend of the Greeks. It never even tried to help them.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Sinn Féin has nothing of substance to say in this debate or any other debate.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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The Fine Gael Deputies are smiling over there. Their policies were implemented. It is only the Fine Gaelers who are smiling.
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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It is summertime.
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Order for Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice, please.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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Over the past seven years, the people have struggled in many ways to come through the recession. Throughout Ireland, people struggle with mortgages. They are raising families in difficult situations. I saw a report which states grocery prices have gone up approximately 70%. People are struggling to send their kids to college. We have property tax. Elderly people will get 45 minutes of home help to get out of bed. County councils cannot take on new employees even though the number of employees they have has been decimated. We all know the state of the health service. Each one of us in this Dáil gets calls every day about the distress families are suffering. The Tánaiste told us earlier to look at where we have come from. She is right. Look at it. The kick in the teeth to the people is to be found in the reports in the media telling us that top politicians and former taoisigh will now get a couple of grand extra. They will end up with €136,000 to look out the window at home and smile at Ireland. Former Ministers will be looked after. Just imagine it. The rise they will get in their pensions equates to extra home care for three people. Some of them, including the Tánaiste, have said they will not accept it, which I acknowledge. However, that is not the way to go forward. Some of these people will give the State the two fingers. They will run for the hills with the money in their pockets. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, has been asked about this situation. What did he do? He put his hands in the air and asked what could he do.
When crises hit this country, the Government was prepared to bring in emergency legislation. We are legislators. We are here to solve the problems of the country. We cannot have a family home being repossessed. We cannot have banks closing in on families throughout the country and at the same time give €2,000 to the fat cats. I am not long a Member of the Dáil but I will ask the Tánaiste one thing. Will she answer me straight? I do not need an epitaph. I want straight answers. Does she agree with those increases in pensions? Will her Government legislate to stop this immediately? When will she bring in that legislation?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The answer is never.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I thank the Deputy. First of all, in relation to the issue of local authorities hiring staff-----
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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We do not want to know about them.
John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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Answer the question.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Answer the question.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----I am sure the Deputy is aware that his own county council in Galway, along with all the other county councils, have been sanctioned to hire more than 300 additional staff.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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We have not got one in Tipperary. Not one.
Ann Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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Deputy McGrath needs to speak to his county manager.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is up to the county manager to apply. Some 300 additional staff have been sanctioned to provide for the planning, building and development of new homes and houses in all counties throughout Ireland-----
John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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Answer the question.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----as part of the Government's €3.5 billion investment in housing in this country. In case Deputy Fitzmaurice is not aware of the fact-----
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Answer the question.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----I know from visiting Galway that Galway County Council has taken on more staff. Those extra staff are in addition to the 1,800 or so additional teachers and the 600 additional special needs assistants who have been taken on throughout the country. The Deputy's suggestion that a recovery dividend is not being paid in terms of additional staff is wrong. While it is a few counties away from him, Deputy Fitzmaurice will probably know that Templemore, which was shuttered by the previous Government, is now home at any one time to 500 or 600 gardaí in training.
John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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What has this got to do with the question he asked about the pensions? This is unreal. A specific question was asked but we cannot get an answer.
Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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I have had enough. I am going to leave.
Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Peter has had enough.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Peter could not take it any more. Even Peter walked out.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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On the Lansdowne Road agreement and the emergency financial measures in the FEMPI legislation, the advice to the Minister, Deputy Howlin, has been that the FEMPI measures should be unwound as the Lansdowne Road deal comes to an end.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Government can cut the lone parents payment but it cannot cut payments to the fat cats.
John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Take it easy, Mattie.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I will not take it easy. It is a fact.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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As the House will be aware, a new deal is currently being negotiated and finalised with the trade unions. People on pensions in excess of €100,000 have rightly taken a pension deduction of 20% in the special levy on high level pensions. There is a significant deduction in existence at the moment, in respect of FEMPI, imposed on people who have very high pensions at more than €100,000.
Deputy Fitzmaurice referenced my personal view. If the Taoiseach of this country earns less than €200,000 and therefore might be in line for a pension of somewhat less than half of that, and the Taoiseach now earns significantly less than €200,000, I do not see why anyone in this country-----
John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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One Minister living in America for the past five years is still getting his pension. He is not even living in Ireland.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----who was paid out of public funds should earn a pension in excess of €100,000.
Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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What is the Tánaiste going to do about it?
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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However, the principal people in receipt of these sums are medical consultants who are very highly paid following a move initiated by the previous Government.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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It has been endorsed by this Government.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I have said it publicly and I will say it again. We have been legally advised that now that the financial emergency is over, thankfully, the FEMPI legislation should be unwound in line with the restoration of, in particular, low-paid public servants' pay in respect of the cuts they took in terms of both actual cuts to their wages and additional levies in relation to pensions.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Can we see that advice?
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The same applied to low earning retired civil servants on pensions. I have made a suggestion-----
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Cut the lone parent's payment.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----to the people involved who are fortunate enough. Some of these former Ministers and taoisigh earn more than serving Ministers and taoisigh or almost as much nowadays.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Which is why they do not need it.
John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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As I said, one is living in America. He is not even living in Ireland. Martin Cullen is living in America. He has been living there five years.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I think they should have the decency to offer-----
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Legislate.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----to refund that pension increase to the State.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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They should not get it.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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They should do it on a voluntary basis and they should acknowledge the strong level of pension they receive.
Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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They can claim it after a year or two. It will come back to them.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I do not see why they would need it. It would be an honourable gesture-----
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Like burning the bondholders.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----to the State they served.
John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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The Tánaiste is asking them to give it back but will not take it off them.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The State now contributes significantly to their pensions and comfort in retirement. They should refrain from accepting it.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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I am not long in the Dáil but after listening to that waffle a person would lose the will to be here. The same ding-dong goes on every day. I look around me and no one answers a question straight. The fact is those politicians who are gone have given the two fingers to the State. We need to do something as legislators to stop what is going on. Go out on the ground and listen to the people. This is a problem with many politicians. The Government should listen to its backbenchers. In fairness to the backbenchers of all parties and none, behind the scenes they will say what is going on is a disgrace.
Why does the Tánaiste not listen to the people on the ground who have made the sacrifices in the past six or seven years? Why does she not show an example as a leader or a deputy leader of a country, show the people and give them the hope they need? They need to know there is some someone at the top who will show the light, show the way and not keep with the same ding-dong with the fat cats of this country.
The Tánaiste should go around Ireland to the small and medium-sized businesses. She has talked about where we are now. We are €208 billion in debt. We are not out of the woods. The Tánaiste should go into every small town in this country. Small and medium-sized businesses are struggling and on their knees. They are keeping the door open and the light lit but I can tell the Tánaiste they will not have a holiday.
These people who have absconded and gone include ex-taoisigh and ex-ministers. Some of them are living outside the State. They do not give a damn. They are not worried about small business. The small businesses are what will bring Ireland back and make an Ireland of the future, not these people who have headed for the hills.
I do not accept that we could ask someone if they might give it back to us. That day is gone. As legislators, we need to sit down. Whatever the way, legally it can be done.
12:20 pm
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Of course it can.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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If we say it cannot be done, then we are giving up as a country.
I am appealing to the Tánaiste. Altogether, I think there would be support right around the House. We could work together and make sure this will not go on. There are senior civil servants who have retired on massive pensions as well. This cannot go on, when we see people struggling on €20,000, €30,000 and €40,000. They cannot send their children to college. They are the people who have pulled Ireland out of the coals, out of the fire. I appeal to the Tánaiste to reconsider what she is doing. We would work with the Government. I believe everyone in the House is disgusted with what has been said. I put it to the Tánaiste that legislation has to come in: if we need to come in during the holidays, let us do it. Let us go forward, show example and let the people see that there is some decency in politicians before they given up on us once and for all.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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When this Government came into office the first thing we did was abolish a series of privileges which applied to politicians, in particular, to officeholders who served in government. We abolished all of the transition payments relating to retiring Ministers. Not only that, but Ministers and others who would serve henceforth received and took significant cuts in their salaries and in their future pension entitlements. In fact, for ordinary Deputies the future pension entitlements of those who came to serve recently apply from the age of 65 years. By the way, at the time, I did not see the Independent Members offering the €41,000 allowance that each of them get on a tax-free basis.
John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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Yes we did.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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It is €40,000 a year.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I did not see them offering that.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The Government parties get it as well.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I did not see them offering that.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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They get €200,000 over five years.
John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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The Government parties get millions.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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They get €200,000 over five years.
Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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Government Members get €25 million.
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Excuse me, can we have order, please?
John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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They get it free into their pockets.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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They get €200,000.
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Can we have order, please?
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Will they give it back? Will they give back the €40,000?
Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I will swap Deputy Kehoe my €40,000 for his €25 million.
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I have called the Tánaiste, please.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Perhaps Deputy Fitzmaurice might lead by example. Perhaps he does not take that particular payment.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Perhaps Deputy Fitzmaurice would lead or, in terms of his fellow Independent Deputies, address-----
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry. This is Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice's question. Can we have order, please? Deputy Donnelly, please.
John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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What is the Tánaiste going to do about it? The former Minister is off living in America. What is the Tánaiste going to do about the former Minister living in America who brought this country to its knees? He is laughing at this State in America.
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy, please.
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I have asked the Tánaiste to reply.
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Halligan, this is Deputy Fitzmaurice's question, please. Deputy Fitzmaurice asked the question.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Deputy Fitzmaurice-----
John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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He is on a golf course in America with a huge pension after wrecking this country. The pension is being sent out to America to him.
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Halligan, I do not know what you are talking about. I am going to have to suspend the House if we cannot have Deputy Fitzmaurice's question addressed.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Deputy Fitzmaurice said that he would support moves that "can legally be done" - that was the phrase he used. In that, his has used a very wise phrase, one with which I concur. This is because it is the same constitutional advice as has been given to the Government.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Can we see it?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Can we see the advice?
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is related to the financial emergency measures. The financial emergency period, thankfully, is over and is beginning to recede.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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We are €208 billion in debt.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That is because of the sacrifices the people in Ireland have made. The legal advice to us, whether Deputies like it, is relevant. Deputy Fitzmaurice talked about what can be legally done. I accept the spirit in which he is making his proposal. However, he asked that we could see what can legally be done.
Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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Tax them.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I will certainly take it up again with the Attorney General. However, a range of legal advice suggests that a pension right is a particular right people have. It was reduced in the emergency for people on over €100,000 by 20% and upwards. It was reduced even more by this Government when we came into office for current and future officeholders and Members. That was agreed and it was legally okay.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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Why not leave it reduced?
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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This is Leaders' Questions, please.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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At the moment according to the legal advice that is available to us, the recourse is that the people involved, whether they are in America sunning themselves, as Deputy Halligan has suggested-----
John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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They are in America. He is in America.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Then, it behoves them and perhaps their former party members in the House - I am referring to the former party of government - to advise them that in the public interest they should actually not take what would be, in effect, some reduction in the level of reduction they are currently taking.
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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That concludes Leaders' Questions. I hope Deputy Fitzmaurice heard all that was said there; I could not.