Dáil debates

Thursday, 9 July 2015

11:20 am

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am not sure whether the Tánaiste is aware of the many devastating cases that we are hearing about in e-mails and from constituents that are demonstrating the impact on so many families across the country of the cut to the one-parent family allowance that was brought in on 1 July. I received a heart-rending e-mail last week from a woman who has been working since she was 14 years of age. In recent times she has had to move back to her parents' home because of the cuts to rent allowance and her inability to afford rent. Her lowest point was going to the post office recently and realising that her payment had been cut from €150 to €81. She describes the impact of this cut. Of course, there is no increase in her wages. She will require close to €50 to pay for petrol to go to work. She wrote that what the Government has done is to make her feel ashamed and humiliated because she is a lone parent. Perhaps the Tánaiste has heard similar sentiments, because the woman's view was "What does the Tánaiste care? Her aim is to liberate lone parents." The woman wrote that the Government had just set her back years and she was ashamed of it.

Equally, the Labour Party Whip, Deputy Stagg, finds the Tánaiste's cuts indefensible. In an e-mail to his constituents who have contacted him about this matter, he stated that he voted for this in 2012 because he was told that the promised child care system would be in place before the last and most severe of the changes. Then he wrote that there had been angry debate at parliamentary party meetings on the issue and that he simply failed to see how cutting the income of the very people who are making a real effort to improve the lot of their families and themselves helps them in any way to get out of the poverty trap, when it clearly has the opposite effect. He stated that he would continue to press for a reversal of this bad decision. He finally stated that he did not blame the constituents for withdrawing support for the party, but he would continue to try to convince those who are making decisions. Clearly, Deputy Stagg has not convinced the Tánaiste, the person who has made the decision that has caused genuine suffering to many.

I have come across other cases. A 53 year old man earning €200 is now getting no lone parent payment and, because he is self-employed, he gets no family income supplement, FIS.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Charlie McCreevy's dirty dozen.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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He has been refused FIS a second time and he has been working since he was 14 years of age. A working woman with a medical condition has been advised by the social welfare office not to work any more and to go on invalidity pension. One self-employed woman is now getting zero payment and has had to close down a child-minding service that she had been operating for ten years in order to get some work outside the home.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should put a question.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Tánaiste aware of the deep suffering that many families are now experiencing-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Has she a heart?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Does she agree with her party Whip, Deputy Stagg, that this is a bad decision, that it will not help people out of the poverty trap and that it is clearly having the opposite effect? Does she agree with Deputy Stagg's assessment of the cuts that she has introduced?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The first point I would make about lone parents is that, notwithstanding very significant spending by the Government of which Deputy Martin was a member during the height of the boom, lone parents' risk of poverty was higher then than it is now. The Fianna Fáil-led Government refused to reform benefits for lone parents. John Downing was on radio in recent times recalling a discussion with one of the former Fianna Fáil Ministers for social protection. Notwithstanding the advice in those days of the OECD and others that lone parents were the people most at risk of poverty in Irish society, and the fact that this was a time when there was a lot of money to spend on social welfare, Fianna Fáil chose not to undertake any kind of reform.

Through a combination of approximately 19 hours per week of work and the family income supplement, FIS, the purpose of this reform, which is in its third year, is to lift the situation for lone parents and bring their income up above €400 per week, depending on the number of children they have and the hourly rate at which they are employed. For a lone parent, for instance, who would only be on one-parent family allowance for himself or herself and one child, that would work out at the moment at an average of about €220 per week. I think most people in the House would agree that is a very low income. However, if a lone parent raises his or her hours to 19 per week at the minimum wage and receives FIS as well, his or her income would rise to over €400 per week. Now, if this House and this society and country are serious-----

11:25 am

Photo of Barry CowenBarry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Who will mind the children?

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste is misleading the House.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----and, in particular, if Fianna Fáil is serious about addressing-----

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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What about childminders?

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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What about the Scandinavian model of child care?

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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Why are many lone parents-----

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----the very real issues of poverty-----

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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The Tánaiste is deluding herself.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Order, please.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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If Fianna Fáil is serious about addressing the very real issues of poverty-----

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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By making them poorer. Does the Tánaiste believe herself? No one else does, not even her party's Whip.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----among lone parents-----

Photo of Colm KeaveneyColm Keaveney (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Children are going to school impoverished. The Tánaiste is taking money off them.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----it must actually-----

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Deputy Stagg does not-----

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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The Government is taking money off them.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste has the floor, please.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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What did Deputy Stagg say? Deputy Stagg actually said-----

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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He said that it was a bad decision.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----as recently as this morning in a local media outlet-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Tánaiste has him handbagged.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----that, in fact, the reform was a good reform. Now, second-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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He said that because the Tánaiste gave him a belt of a handbag.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Deputy Stagg said it was too-----

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Stagg got caught telling the truth.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----in respect of Deputy O'Dea's question about child care, what we did was unique to Ireland.

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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It certainly was.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We raised the age from five years-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Get on with it.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----as it is in the UK-----

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste promised Scandinavian-type child care.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste is not discussing the details.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----the North and most of Scandinavia-----

(Interruptions).

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----to seven years to make provision for the child to get settled in primary school in and around first class. What we also did-----

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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The Government did not raise the age.

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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Does that solve it all?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----is that we brought in no requirement to work.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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Where is the child care for women?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We established a transitional seven-year period-----

Photo of Barry CowenBarry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Bring the child to work.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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It is scandalous.

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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The Government would have done that anyway.

Photo of Colm KeaveneyColm Keaveney (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Government is taking money from homeless people and-----

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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The Tánaiste reduced the age. She should be ashamed of herself.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputies, please.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----so that the requirement to work, similar to any jobseeker, arises only when the child is 14. So, we have actually brought in an extra nine-year transition period-----

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Great.

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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People are losing €80 per week.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----compared to the recommendations of the OECD-----

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste cut it.

Photo of Joan CollinsJoan Collins (Dublin South Central, United Left)
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The Tánaiste should visit Barretstown.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Quiet, please.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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If the Deputies are concerned about poverty and lone parents-----

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----they must agree, as Deputy Stagg does-----

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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He does not agree.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----that the current system has not worked.

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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One could say the same about care.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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In Fianna Fáil's time-----

Photo of Colm KeaveneyColm Keaveney (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Around 1,100 children are sleeping in hotels. The Government took their homes from them.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----there was €1 billion per year or so-----

(Interruptions).

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----spent on lone parents. It did not lift lone parents out of poverty.

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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What about illness and jobseeker's benefits?

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The Government will put money in politicians' pension pots, though.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That is the question Deputy Martin has to answer. Why was he never, in his long ministerial career in Fianna Fáil-----

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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By taking money off the parents, is the Tánaiste making that better?

Photo of Colm KeaveneyColm Keaveney (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Around 1,100 children are sleeping in hotels.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----concerned about trying to move lone parents in Irish society-----

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste always said that Brian Cowen did not-----

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Since this Government came to office, child poverty has doubled.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----to a better and respected place, whereas-----

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste does not sound too concerned about lone parents.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Child poverty has doubled in this Government's lifetime.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputies, please.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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What Deputy Martin will not do-----

(Interruptions).

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Quiet, please.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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What Deputy Martin seems to want to do is-----

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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Has the Tánaiste not met any lone parent who told her about this problem? We have.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----avoid the issue of lifting lone parents out of poverty.

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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We did not show our concern by cutting the rate by €80.

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, this is scandalous.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I want to lift lone parents out of poverty.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry, but could we have order, please?

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Should they bring their kids to work? Should they have them work as well?

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Could the person in possession please be allowed to speak? I call Deputy Martin to ask a supplementary question.

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste shows her concern by cutting their money.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will give the Tánaiste a bit of advice. This kind of political grandstanding has no impact-----

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Is there none coming from that side of the House?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----or does not seek to persuade the people whom I identified this morning. It does not convince the woman who wrote to SPARK, for example, who is down €70 per week. She said she did not want to go into the figures because she would get a lump in her throat, and that she dreaded the thought of winter. All of the letters and e-mails that we are getting are saying that people cannot afford child care.

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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That woman is less likely to be employed.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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One woman said that she must now tell her child to stay indoors until 1 p.m. when she returned. The Tánaiste promised a Scandinavian-type child care provision-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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And she gave us a scandalous one.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----which never happened.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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They will have it.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It never happened.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The Government has done nothing about child care.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Quiet, please.

11:35 am

Photo of Colm KeaveneyColm Keaveney (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste is surrounded by Torys.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Another person said, "The future is very bleak for me and my gem of a 12 year old." The Tánaiste can do all of the grandstanding and political stuff that she does and quote figures that were wrong because that is what she wants to do.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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No, I did not.

Photo of Colm KeaveneyColm Keaveney (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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They were wrong.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Deputy Martin's figures are wrong.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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She wants to go down the route of cuts. I will not go down there. It is just too----

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Deputy Martin's figures are wrong.

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste is convincing no one.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Martin has the floor.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste's greatest mistake was to quote the wrong statistics. This message is not coming from me, but from people who were incensed by her performance on this issue last week. They are fed up of trying to play figure against figure. The policy is not working. In 2012, more than 60% of lone parents were at least in part-time employment. The figure in 2014 was 36%.

Photo of Colm KeaveneyColm Keaveney (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Well done.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That figure is wrong.

Photo of Colm KeaveneyColm Keaveney (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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It is true.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The policy is not working. The bottom line-----

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Deputy Martin's figure is wrong.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Are the parents making it up?

Photo of Colm KeaveneyColm Keaveney (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Are they lying?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Stagg, Labour's Whip, does not agree with the Tánaiste. That is in black and white in his letter to his constituent.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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He was handbagged by the Tánaiste.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Stagg wrote, "I simply fail to see how cutting the income of the very ones who are making a real effort to improve the lot of their families and themselves help them in some way to get out of the poverty trap. It clearly has the opposite effect. I will continue to press for a reversal of this bad decision."

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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Can the Tánaiste answer that?

(Interruptions).

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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It is a pity that Deputy Stagg did nothing about it.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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He even wrote that he understood fully why this constituent would never vote for the party again. That is what he wrote in his e-mail.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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A question, please.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Stagg wrote that he would continue trying to convince the Tánaiste-----

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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And now she claims that he supports it.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----who was wrong, to reverse the bad decision.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How is that going, Emmet?

A Deputy:

The Tánaiste is wrong.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The lone parents and children who are suffering do not give a damn about Joan Burton having a cut off Micheál Martin. To them, that sums up the detachment from politics of those in government. What they really want to hear is who will bridge the gap for them-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----who will pay to enable them to get their children to school next September and who will enable them to get petrol to get to work in order to provide funding for child care.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Not you. You did nothing for decades.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sorry, but I am not worried. They do not really-----

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You turned your back on them for years.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He is Mother Teresa now.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Be quiet, please, Deputies.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are not into the argy bargy of politics. It is meaningless to them.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We cannot-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That type of stuff the Tánaiste is going on with is meaningless to them.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Thank you, Deputy.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What they really want to hear is whether there is any glimmer of hope that the Tánaiste will see the light and accept that this measure, which she introduced on 1 July, is having a devastating impact on a significant number of lone parents and their children.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Thank you, but I must call the Tánaiste.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the Tánaiste do something to change this? Everyone in the House is saying it, but she refuses to be convinced. Even her own party is saying it.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I suggest that Deputy Martin, when he has the time, look at some of the figures he has just read out in the House here about the numbers of lone parents in work, because his figures are wrong. I will provide Deputy Martin with the updated figures-----

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about the weekly losses?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----and with the recent figures according to the SILC. His figures are just plain wrong.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did Deputy Stagg write to someone who did not exist?

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

These people are imaginary.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We could actually have a better debate if Deputy Martin came in here with some knowledge of the situation on the ground.

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hear, hear.

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have had the knowledge for years.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That would be a new departure.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am on the ground. The Tánaiste is not. That is the problem with her.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Secondly, can I just say this to the Deputy? For instance, the back to work family dividend, which we introduced in the budget, has now had 2,500 people - families - apply for it-----

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It does not compensate for the losses.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----and another 500-----

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is the Tánaiste boasting about that?

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Quiet, please.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

For a family with two children-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste has no feelings.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----that is worth €60 per week.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There has been a deduction already.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is specifically designed to help, including people who are self-employed, by the way, but Deputy Martin has obviously never heard of it. He referred to two self-employed people there. The back to work family dividend is actually available for self-employed people.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not making up this. These are the very people who-----

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

FIS is not available to them.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am going on the cases the Deputy raised.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

FIS is not available to them.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste has the floor. Deputy Martin asked a question.

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste is trying to mislead the House.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can I ask Deputy Martin, as a responsible politician, to give us the actual details of the people involved? The approach by the social welfare offices----

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Stagg has their details.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----around the country is to meet people-----

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Cop yourself on, Tánaiste.

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Stop trying to mislead the House.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----on a one-to-one-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Someone said she communicated with the Tánaiste but did not hear a dicky bird back.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please, Deputy, the Tánaiste is replying.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

People have said they have gone to the Tánaiste. They have listened to her.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are actually helping people on a one-to-one basis-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Where are they?

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They would do that anyway without the change.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They cannot be found.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----to get back to education, to get back to training, to get employment and, if they need extra hours, to get-----

(Interruptions).

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----extra hours from their employers.

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They did not need it changed.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Also in the budget and at the time of the budget-----

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They did not need this to be changed.

Photo of Colm KeaveneyColm Keaveney (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They get a few extra hours.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----we had a series of initiatives under way-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Someone send for the Minister, Deputy Kelly, quickly.

Photo of Colm KeaveneyColm Keaveney (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about those on zero-hour contracts? Some chance.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----that will significantly improve, I hope, the position for all low-paid people, including-----

Photo of Noel GrealishNoel Grealish (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You "hope"?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Well, I am awaiting the report of the Low Pay Commission-----

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are sick waiting.

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about the parents?

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Parents have been waiting for an answer.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----something that Fianna Fail never did.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How can a family survive on €80 per week less?

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Quiet, please.

11:45 am

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Fianna Fáil cut the minimum wage.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How can a family that is losing €80 a week be better off?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It cut the weekly income-----

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste needs to answer that. How can they be better off after losing €80 a week?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----of lone parents by €16.40 a week.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Freagair an cheist.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

And the blind.

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Have working single parents' payments been reduced, or have they not? There will be a reduction of €1,000 in their incomes.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Fianna Fáil also cut the minimum wage by €1 an hour. Lone parents in Fianna Fáil's time-----

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They were better off than they are now.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They were far better off.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----of the kind that Deputy Stagg is talking about lost €16 a week.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The income disregard is down. The Tánaiste is pathetic.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Fianna Fáil put them into poverty.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If they were working 15 hours a week-----

Photo of Colm KeaveneyColm Keaveney (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste finds poverty funny.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----they actually lost a further €15.

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is cold comfort to people who are losing €80 a week.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They were actually down €30 a week.

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste needs to answer the question. Are working single parents' payments down? A "Yes" or "No" answer will suffice.

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will more people go to work? How is the gap going to be bridged?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is the Deputies' legacy. They do not seem to remember it.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Could we have order, please? I call Deputy Tóibín.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They will never change.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are pretending not to remember.

Photo of Colm KeaveneyColm Keaveney (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Gougers.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Order, please. I have called Deputy Tóibín.

Photo of Colm KeaveneyColm Keaveney (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Gougers.

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Where are the socialists to fill the gap?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You have some records, lads.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste needs to forget about the politics, but she cannot do so.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have moved on to the next question.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You have some records.

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You are some fake.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Stagg is absolutely right when he disagrees with the Tánaiste's argument that cutting the incomes of lone parents will get them out of the poverty trap. The two-faced aspect of his actions is that he is expressing such views locally while voting the other way in the Dáil.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hear, hear.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Even worse, he is whipping all the other Labour Party Deputies to make this deep cut in the incomes of people who are in poverty.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The handbag is more powerful than the whip.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Duplicity is also at the heart of the Clerys debacle. Almost a month has passed since the staff and concession holders of Clerys were turfed out onto the street by liquidators. All they have received from the Labour Party so far is a two-faced response. The Tánaiste and her Government colleagues have described the actions of the new employers as absolutely despicable, insensitive and appalling. The Tánaiste borrowed a phrase from the failed Labour Party leader in England, Ed Miliband, when she said that these actions represented predatory capitalism. Her comments stand in contrast with what the other face of the Labour Party, the Minister of State for inertia, Deputy Nash, said when he published his report on the liquidation of Clerys earlier this week. Even though the report in question provides a textbook analysis of a tactical insolvency delivered with merciless precision, astoundingly the Minister of State has said there is nothing to see here. Shockingly, he has also said there are no deficiencies at all in the legislative framework. If the State is on the hook for millions of euro with regard to the redundancies of workers who have been treated in a despicable manner, how in God's name can anybody accept that there are no deficiencies in the legislative framework in this State? The truth is that the legislation in this State, under the stewardship of this Government, incentivises ruthless employers to go down the route of separating out companies so that they can use tactical insolvency to insulate themselves from their responsibilities to this State and to their workers. The Tánaiste's approach of talking tough while doing nothing is tactical deception on her part. The strong words she used yesterday contrast sharply with the inertia of the Minister of State. There is a disagreement here. Who is right? Is everything fine and dandy with regard to legislation, or will the Government legislate to resolve this case?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have had the opportunity to meet a number of the Clerys workers, many of whom were there for 40 years or more. I want to say formally on the record of the Dáil that I thank SIPTU for making its premises available to facilitate the Department of Social Protection going in and giving very extensive help and assistance to workers in relation to their entitlements. The people who come first at the moment are the workers. They should get those redundancy and insolvency entitlements which are their right in law as soon as possible. If the Deputy is suggesting we should use legislation in some way to up-end their entitlements under current legislation-----

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Nobody is making that suggestion.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----I suggest he is advocating such a tactic not out of a lack of concern for the workers but possibly out of a lack of experience of dealing with the issues that arise in legislation from the Clerys case.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Nobody on the planet has made that suggestion.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The workers in this case come first. In conjunction with the staff of the Departments of Social Protection and Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, the Minister of State, Deputy Nash, and I have put together-----

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Tea and sympathy.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----a service for the Clerys workers that will enable them to access their entitlements regardless of the broader legal issues. Some very broad and deep legal issues are arising from the manner in which this insolvency was structured. I refer to the group structure of companies. The Deputy needs to be very careful with what he is suggesting. The use of group structures by companies in Ireland goes back practically forever - certainly back to the 1940s - in company law. There is nothing improper in having a group structure, but there is everything wrong - just as there is with tax avoidance, particularly aggressive tax avoidance - in manufacturing a situation which results in a company in the group apparently achieving a very significant price for the property part of the group, while leaving the operational side of the group, which employs the workers and the concessionaires, bereft and insolvent of funds. It is a very clever and aggressive scheme of company law planning. We have ways of addressing those issues in tax law. A number of issues are being addressed by the Revenue Commissioners at the moment. I want to make it clear that this process will have at least two parts. The message I want to send to people who have been working and giving great service in Clerys over many decades is that their redundancy payments, which are funded through the social insurance that has been willingly paid by them and by everyone else in this country, are secure. Unfortunately, these payments will be made at a minimum rate and not at the rate they might have got if the company had reached an agreement with the workers, which would have been right and proper in this case. I do not want the Deputy to sow doubts in people's minds that their payments are not secure.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Nobody is sowing doubts.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To be honest, the Deputy has been throwing a lot of stuff around like snuff at a wake. The important and significant report that has been put together by the Minister of State, Deputy Nash, sets out in clinical detail the sequence of the history of the events that happened. It also sets out how and where company law operates in Ireland at the moment. We will have a very detailed examination of company law and of what actions may be taken to ensure we address this situation. First of all, we have to look after the workers. That should be the Deputy's concern.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This has been happening over and over again.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When?

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The State is getting-----

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy needs to give us the "over and over again".

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

La Senza and Vita Cortex.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Multiple companies in this country have separated out their firms-----

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When?

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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-----in an effort to insulate their investments from the responsibilities they have to their staff. The fact is that both the State and the workers are getting stuffed over and over again. We have complete inertia from the Labour Party with regard to its response. If I have to paint it out clearly and simply for the Tánaiste again, I will do so. A number of purchases in 2012 and 2015 have been about maximising property profits and minimising responsibility to employees. Gordon Brothers walked away from the sale of Clerys with approximately €15 million. Natrium has bought a prime development opportunity worth multiples of what it has invested. The Minister of State, Deputy Nash, has said he is satisfied that Gordon Brothers and Natrium are not required under company law to cough up with regard to employees' entitlements. Is the Tánaiste satisfied that they are not forced to do so? If we do not resolve this through legislation, we will be back here in six months talking about another firm. It is clear that there is a flaw in the existing framework. The question is whether the Labour Party will challenge that flaw.

Will the Labour Party fix that flaw? For our part, Sinn Féin has already tabled legislation on this issue, but it has not received the support of the Labour Party.

We are told that this matter has been referred to the Company Law Review Group. This group last met in February and the items it has been asked to consider do not include a review of section 224 of the Companies Act 2014 or tactical insolvencies. The fact that it has not been asked to do this yet is alarming. Such situations are happening repeatedly, and in large numbers, but this practice is not being challenged. The Minister of State says in his report that section 224 imposes a duty on directors in respect of company employees. What is the specific provision in that section and where is the precedent? When will the Company Law Review Group meet to discuss the legal issues arising from the Clerys situation? When will it be charged with reviewing the existing company law framework, or are we to have another example of duplicity with strong robust rhetoric from the Government but nothing being done?

11:55 am

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I would be grateful if the Deputy would give us the data on the multiple cases to which he refers. To my knowledge, what happened in Clerys and the way the company behaved in such a predatory fashion to workers is, thankfully, rather unusual among Irish companies and employers.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Many companies split into different companies.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Deputy should send me the details. He said there were multiple examples. I know of a couple of examples but the Deputy has spoken about multiples. I do not know what that means to the Deputy, but it sounds like many cases to me.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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Is not one too many?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I would like to have the details of the many cases.

The liquidators in this case have been appointed and I understand they met on 8 July. As the Deputy knows, there will be a committee to deal with the liquidation. When the liquidation gets under way, at that point the liquidators will have identified the due entitlements of the workers under redundancy and insolvency legislation, which all of us as taxpayers in the State will pick up through our contributions to PRSI. When that arises-----

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Can the Tánaiste not prevent that?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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At that point the Department of Social Protection will do a couple of things. First, it will become a preferred creditor because it will be shelling out, on behalf of taxpayers-----

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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I am asking the Tánaiste to prevent this situation happening. She is cleaning up the problem, not preventing it.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----the payments for redundancy. As for cleaning up the problem, these are human beings who have lost out after 40 years-----

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste's job is to prevent it happening in future.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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No, my job as Tánaiste and Minister for Social Protection is to ensure that those workers get their money, which is fully provided for under current insolvency and redundancy legislation.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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And let them get away with it.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That is the first job. The second job, once we have reached that point in the liquidation process, is to seek any legal mechanism we can utilise-----

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Introduce legislation. It is very simple.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----to see what can be done to secure the maximum return to taxpayers. I do not have a complete answer on that at this stage, because we still do not have any reports from the liquidators who have just commenced their work.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste said it is despicable.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Third, of course we will review company law.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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She said it is predatory capitalism.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Minister of State, Deputy Nash, produced a preliminary report on Clerys. He is the first Minister to have done such a thing, and I commend him for it. It is a preliminary report and, as with tax avoidance law, mechanisms will have to be developed to ensure that, notwithstanding that we accept groups of companies, although perhaps Sinn Féin does not accept-----

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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We do accept.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----the possibility of that structure-----

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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It is when they are used to insulate them from responsibilities to workers.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We will then review company law to ensure that an occurrence such as this, in so far as possible, is prevented from happening in the future.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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The Tánaiste has had five years.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Paul Murphy on behalf of the Technical Group.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, Socialist Party)
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Today, a young couple, Alan Murphy and Kelly Gilsenan, are before the High Court. They are not before the court because they committed a heinous crime, but because they are homeless. They are homeless due to the decisions of this Government. The Government has shown the same disregard to people on rent supplement, who are facing massive hikes in rent, as it has shown to lone parents.

Alan suffers from serious epilepsy. He was in a coma in Tallaght hospital and had to quit his job. Kelly is now his full-time carer. They are two of the nicest people one could meet. Their previous landlord sold their house so they were forced to move out. Like many others, they did everything they could to find somewhere else to live. However, they simply could not find a landlord who would accept rent supplement or a rent they could afford. As no suitable accommodation was offered by South Dublin County Council, like others they were forced to sleep in a tent. They decided to bring the problem to the council's door by sleeping in its offices overnight a couple of weeks ago. The council went to the High Court to seek an injunction to force them out of the offices. Is this what we have come to? Does the Tánaiste stand over a situation where councils are going to the High Court to seek injunctions against homeless people because they do not have sufficient emergency accommodation for them?

Since a court case a week and a half ago, the couple have been sleeping in a tent in Sean Walsh Memorial Park. They have also stayed in emergency accommodation. The conditions in the emergency accommodation are horrific. In the first place they stayed, the entrance was blocked with rubbish, the mattresses were covered in urine and mould was growing on the windows. In the next place, there was vomit and food on the floor and unwashed mattresses. Alan and Kelly are not criminals. They are simply homeless as a result of decisions made not by them but by others. However, they are treated like criminals. Their situation, as Alan described it to me yesterday, is like an open prison, with curfews, no cooking facilities and no individual freedom. They are not alone. There are 3,000 people in a similar situation, 1,000 of whom are children. The Tánaiste is responsible for a significant part of this problem by refusing to increase the rent supplement caps while also refusing to introduce rent controls. Will she now review this decision?

Meanwhile, there is a hole of €18.5 million in Dublin city's budget for homelessness services. Will the Government give a commitment to fill that hole? Will it investigate the conditions in emergency accommodation and commit itself to improving them? Finally, will the Tánaiste take note of the housing activists who have taken matters in their own hands? They have taken over a hostel owned by Dublin City Council on Bolton Street, which was just left there. They have refurbished it and are opening it to house homeless people. If they can do that with no resources and as volunteers, given the hundreds of empty NAMA properties throughout the State and in south Dublin why cannot the State take the same action to provide emergency accommodation and social and affordable housing?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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First, with regard to Alan and Kelly, if the Deputy has been advising them as constituents, I strongly suggest that he ask them to get in touch with the community welfare service in the area. That has been the consistent advice to people in housing difficulties. They should go and talk to the community welfare service, which has complete discretion with regard to the amount of rent that may be paid. At this point, there have been well over 1,000 cases dealt with by the community welfare service. A total of 1,200 cases are in the Dublin local authority areas and 700 to 800 are throughout the rest of the country. I am surprised if the Deputy has been dealing with the case, as I would hope he would advise the couple to contact the community welfare service. In addition, in the six months of this year so far, there have been 6,000 renegotiated or new rent supplement tenancies.

The bulk of these are in Dublin. It is not the best option to go homeless. It is much better to deal with the community welfare service to see if a property can be accessed that suits the needs of the individuals in question. As I stated, we have done this in approximately 6,000 cases so far this year, specifically for people under threat of homelessness for the reasons the Deputy outlined. We have done it specifically in approximately 1,200 cases in the Dublin local authorities.

I met recently with representatives of the Simon Community, Threshold and other housing bodies, all of which agree that the protocol is working well. Therefore, I strongly recommend the protocol to Deputy Murphy and Alan and Kelly as a way of perhaps assisting them. I do not know what Alan and Kelly's precise requirements are but given that Alan has been ill, the couple probably needs specific provision.

On the overall provision for homelessness, the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, has provided €55.5 million in Exchequer funding for homeless services managed by housing authorities and overseen by the Department.

12:05 pm

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The local authorities have not received any of that money.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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Dublin City Council has a shortfall in funding for homelessness.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is out of touch.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Some 6,000 families and individuals have been housed through the rent supplement scheme in the first six months of this year. This is a significant number and a further 2,000 protocol arrangements have been reached to prevent homelessness by renegotiating tenancy arrangements for families at risk of losing their homes. This is also significant. The community welfare service is available to assist with cases, as is Threshold and a number of the housing organisations.

The Deputy referred to the local authority, Dublin City Council, closing a premises that could be used for homeless people.The practice by local authorities of closing up and voiding premises that become vacant is wrong, as the Minister has indicated on many occasions.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The local authorities in Tipperary do not have 1 cent to spend on this and the Minister has not had a single home built in the county.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We have given substantial funding to open up all these voided properties. Significant funding has been provided to open up unfinished estates in different areas, including Tipperary. We need to get every available house and apartment available for people with a housing need.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Where are these available homes?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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In the meantime, as Deputy Murphy is aware, the Government has made the largest ever capital funding allocation for a housing programme, including social housing.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste should try telling that to the local authorities.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Order, please.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, Socialist Party)
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The Government has made more announcements about housing, house-building, social housing and so forth than any other Government in the history of the State. However, according to the records available from the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, the number of local authority social houses built under this Government is the lowest in the history of the State. Every single year in this Government's term has seen fewer social houses built than in any other year on record. That is the truth. The Government can make all the housing announcements it wants but building local authority houses to get people off the housing waiting list, including the 8,500 people, Alan and Kelly included, on South Dublin County Council's waiting list, is the only way to fundamentally address the housing crisis. The Government is doing nothing to solve the problem apart from making announcements.

In terms of the case of Alan and Kelly and 3,000 other cases, the Tánaiste's advice is to recommend that people avoid going homeless. We, too, recommend to people that they should not go homeless and people recommend to themselves that they should not go homeless. People do not want to be homeless and they do not end up in homelessness lightly or without having made contact with a community welfare officer and doing everything else they possibly can. However, when a landlord is selling a property, the tenants must move out and many are unable to find somewhere else to go. Alan and Kelly are in contact with South Dublin County Council on a daily basis. They currently have emergency accommodation because other people were cleared off the homeless list, which will now fill up again. The advice they are receiving is not that they will be allocated a house but that they should find a landlord who will take the housing assistance payment. They cannot find any landlords who will take the HAP and they are not the only people in that position.

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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It is a national problem.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, Socialist Party)
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A recent survey published by the Simon Community found that only 12% of available properties were within rent supplement and housing assistance payment limits. Landlords are refusing to take rent supplement or the HAP.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The position is the same in every town and village.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, Socialist Party)
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This issue will explode because people like Alan and Kelly and those who opened up the Bolt Hostel are not willing to wait for more announcements and the continued lack of housing to deal with this issue. More and more people will take matters into their own hands. How many more will be injuncted to prevent them from staying in council premises if they bring the issue to their local council's doorsteps, which is where people first interact when they have a housing problem? Other housing activists will take over, open up and bring people into National Asset Management Agency buildings. The crime in this case is that the State is not doing this with empty properties. Despite NAMA having control of 12% of hotels in the State, the Government has not opened these properties to deal with the crisis. It should then build homes to deal with the long-term housing and homelessness crises.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I feel terribly sorry, as I am sure everyone does, for anybody who finds themselves in Alan and Kelly's position consequent to the crash in construction, banking and everything else we have worked to resolve in the past four years. The suggestion I made to Deputy Murphy to help Alan and Kelly, which he carefully avoided answering, was that in cases such as those of Alan and Kelly, whom he indicated had been on rent supplement-----

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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That scheme is for rent increases.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----we are helping individuals and families on a case-by-case basis through the community welfare service. Deputy Murphy carefully avoided stating whether he is prepared to-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Government has withdrawn community welfare officers.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Organisations such as Threshold and the Simon Community are using the structures of the community welfare service. The Deputy asks for flexibility on rent supplement. The way to do this is on a case-by-case basis through the community welfare service.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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That is the good old Irish way - deal with problems on a case-by-case basis.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I am suggesting that the Deputy have another conversation with Alan and Kelly to find out if they have approached the community welfare service. I am not certain from the Deputy's answer if that is the case.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, Socialist Party)
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They did.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Perhaps the community welfare service could be of assistance.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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We bring the information to all the right places in every case.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It would also be helpful if the Deputy would provide the couple's details and we will try to find out to what extent they can be assisted. Many rent supplement payments are being negotiated and I have provided the relevant figures. As I also stated, we have negotiated in 1,200 cases where people were at risk of losing their homes for some of the reasons the Deputy describes. That is a significant number.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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The couple lost their home.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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The number of homeless families has doubled since Jonathan Corrie died. The Tánaiste should get that into her head.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Order, please.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The reason for that is the decision by the previous Government to stop building social housing. This Government has begun the process of building social housing.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste needs a reality check. She clearly does not deal with many cases of homelessness.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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She is on a different planet.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The solution is to build more houses.

That is why the Government has allocated €3.5 billion of funding to this.

12:15 pm

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It would be helpful if the Deputies in the Opposition whose parties have members on the various local authorities would ask their members to co-operate to get the social housing programme under way, to get voids reopened and to use the substantial amount of funding that has been made available to the local authorities.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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If they had the funding, they could do it. They are not getting the funding. This is all a spoof.

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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Questions and no answers.