Noel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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10. To ask the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine if he will report on the eradication of bovine tuberculosis, with particular emphasis on the number of animals testing positive in recent years; the number of blackspots in the country; the annual cost of the programme to the Exchequer; if he is satisfied with the manner in which the veterinary profession is carrying out the programme; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [26095/15]

Noel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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The programme for the eradication of TB is hugely important in many senses of the word and from both animal health and human health points of view. It is also a very expensive and ongoing programme. What progress has been made on the expense associated with it? I am especially concerned, however, about how difficult it is to get information from the Minister, his Department and veterinary inspectors when something goes wrong. I am extremely concerned about investigations which take place with officials investigating themselves. I spoke to the Minister about a particular problem. He did not want to get involved in it and he silenced his colleague, the Minister of State sitting beside him, on it. The veterinary officers hide behind legal arguments. The public is hugely concerned that natural justice would not only be done but also be seen to be done.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I will answer both of the Deputy's questions but the first one relates to TB generally. The bovine TB eradication programme has delivered considerable success, particularly in recent years.

The number of reactors has fallen from under 30,000 in 2008 to 16,000 in 2014. The decline in the number of reactors has continued in 2015 with the result that reactor numbers are likely to fall below 15,000 this year for the first time since the programme was introduced in the mid-1950s. Herd incidence of tuberculosis fell from 5.9% to 3.6% between 2008 and 2014 and has continued to decline further this year, with the possible exception of Wicklow, which has a specific issue.

The reduction in the incidence of the disease has already brought significant benefits to farmers. First, 2,700 fewer herds were restricted in 2014 compared to 2008. Second, the annual cost of the TB eradication programme has fallen from €55 million in 2008 to €35 million in 2014. Apart from the number of counties, the herd incidence of TB in most regional clusters is close to the average of 3.6% now. The countries where the incidence of TB is significantly above the national average include Wicklow, Westmeath and Wexford. My Department has undertaken a survey in recent months with regard to the situation in Wicklow to determine the incidence of TB in deer with a view to investigating the impact of TB in deer on the situation in the county. The results of the exercise are still under examination by my Department. The findings of the study will be considered by the non-statutory Irish deer management forum, which will make appropriate recommendations in respect of all aspects of deer management in Wicklow and nationally.

Deputy Coonan referred to a specific case. It is true that I did not want to get involved in it personally. I did not think it was appropriate for a Minister to get involved in individual cases. We have an appeals system when someone believes they have not been treated fairly by my Department or its inspectorate. We encourage people to use that appeals system. In respect of the case the Deputy is concerned about I encourage him to encourage that the appeals system, which is an independent system, should be used and I hope it will get a satisfactory result.

Noel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for his reply, but it does not really deal with the issue. There have been cases like the Fleury case in Offaly, the Cavan case and other cases throughout the country where people, farmers in particular, have been dragged through the courts and where the Department and its inspectors make life difficult for them. People have been put out of business over this.

Under natural justice in this country a person is innocent until proven guilty, but my experience when dealing with the Department is that it is the other way around: a person is guilty until he can prove his innocence.

No farmer that I am aware of or any farmer in the country wants TB. All farmers want it out of their herd immediately and they will do everything to co-operate to get it out. I offer a case in point. The veterinary inspector who is now suspended identified 15 animals as TB reactors. The Department decided this was not the case and that there were only nine. Those responsible left the other six in the herd. Then, two months later when they tested the herd there were over 100 reactors in the herd. These cases are not being answered by the Minister or the Department. We have to drag them screaming to get information from them. Will all ongoing investigations be published and made known at least to the people involved or preferably to the general public?

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Coonan is aware of how the system works. We have a responsibility to ensure that the rules are kept. We have spent time on two or three questions talking about the BSE issue that we have had to deal with in recent weeks. We have programmes dealing with bovine viral diarrhoea, TB and Johne's disease. Obviously, we must ensure farmers farm in a way that is consistent with the cross-compliance rules and so on. Part of my Department's job is the unpopular and unpleasant work of ensuring that people keep the rules and that we have systems in place we can stand over and which guarantee integrity in the food chain. That is all my Department tries to do. If there is a problem with that and if people do not like how the Department is undertaking the job, then we have an independent appeal system to which people can apply. We also have a farmers' charter which has just been agreed in recent weeks with farming organisations. Essentially this covers the codes of conduct under which my Department interacts with farmers. We have agreed that for the coming years.

I am keen to be helpful of course, but I do not believe it is appropriate for the Minister to get involved in the detail of individual cases; otherwise I would spend all my time doing that. That would encourage a kind of political lobbying that would not be healthy in agriculture. Instead, my job is to ensure that we have systems in the Department which can deal with cases that need to be appealed - often there is good reason for appeal - and that provide for a fair appeals process that deals with appeals in a fair, open and transparent manner. That is what I try to do.

Noel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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The people to investigate wrongdoing in this country are the members of the Garda Síochána. The Minister should call in the Garda Síochána to investigate this particular instance. The Department is believing deliberate untruths told by someone else in order to back up the case. Those responsible are investigating themselves and that is not good practice.

Every farmer wants to eradicate TB. I want to see natural justice carried out. My experience of this case is that it is not happening. If the Minister wants to be open then what is he afraid of? He should call in the proper authorities to investigate the situation and deal with it, rather than putting genuine farmers out of business and, in the case of genuine veterinary practitioners, destroying their livelihood and careers.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We are not putting any farmers out of business. We have to make decisions on the basis of the information that is available as a result of the inspections that take place. As I said, I have no wish to discuss the detail of any individual case. We work with An Garda Síochána in many instances and we send a file to An Garda Síochána when appropriate. We have done that in respect of the implementation of the agri-environment options scheme recently in a certain part of the country where we believe that An Garda Síochána should be involved in an investigation there. We have done that repeatedly in respect of horse welfare incidents. We are not afraid to work with An Garda Síochána when appropriate to do so, but we also have to make decisions as a Department on the basis of the evidence that is gathered as a result of individual cases that we have been involved in inspecting. As I said, there is an independent appeals process linked to my Department which should be used if people believe they are not being treated fairly, and they will get fair outcomes from that process.