Dáil debates
Tuesday, 9 June 2015
Leaders' Questions
3:25 pm
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Last Thursday week, 29 May, Deputy Catherine Murphy gave the background to her reasons for believing an independent commission of inquiry should be established relating to transactions in IBRC since 2009. Deputy Murphy had sources, which she believed were reliable and robust, who told her that very low interest rates had been given to Mr. O'Brien. Within minutes of this being reported, the shutters came down on almost all media outlets, preventing them from reporting what Deputy Murphy had said even though it was something which was in the public interest and was covered by absolute privilege under Article 15 of the Constitution. The national broadcaster was silenced, as was TV3, the radio stations and most of the newsprint outlets. Not all were silenced because Broadsheet.ieand The Sunday Timesprinted the material, but others were effectively silenced by threats and intimidatory action to the effect that this material was the subject of a court injunction.
The Taoiseach was also silent. For the entire five-day period in which the media were silent, he was silent too. He did not criticise the media blackout or defend the right of a Member of this House to raise issues of public interest. She was called a "liar" and a "thief" during the public debate that ensued. The Taoiseach went into hiding and many people across the country could not understand why the Taoiseach of the country would not come forward to support Dáil privilege, unequivocally and in public.
Is it because Mr. Denis O'Brien was leading the legal challenge that he remained silent? Does the Taoiseach think Mr. O'Brien was right to do what he did, which is effectively to threaten legal action on media outlets to prevent them reporting what is said in this House? Is the Taoiseach scared of this individual? Was he afraid to confront the issue and the person? Why was he willing to remain silent and indifferent to attempts to stifle legitimate debate, to limit reporting of Dáil proceedings and not to respond to personal attacks against Dáil Deputies?
3:35 pm
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I had five public engagements on the Friday and the same on the Saturday and Sunday in other locations. The request made of me was to recall the Dáil. An injunction was granted by the High Court. A case was before the High Court. This House could have met on the Sunday, Monday and Tuesday and talked itself around in circles. It had no authority and no function in interfering with the court case. Had I made any comment, either side could have used those comments in the intervening period until the judge clarified the intent of the injunction he gave. I was very happy to see the judge clarify exactly that the rights and privileges of elected Members of this House were vindicated, as protected under the Constitution. For that reason, it was not appropriate to have the House recalled. In fact, if anything were to be recalled, it would be the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, because if Members of the House wish to apply sanctions to other Members, they do so internally. While the privilege is constitutional, it is not unlimited and people who do make statements in the House have a responsibility to exercise that privilege in a proper and appropriate fashion. For that reason this House had no function attempting to direct or influence in any way a Justice of the High Court, who clarified, beyond yea or nay, that Members of this House have constitutional protection for what they say here, and they have a duty to use that privilege responsibly.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I believe Deputy Murphy used that privilege responsibly. Judging from the Taoiseach's remarks, he does not. He seems to be siding with Mr. O'Brien on that argument. I did not ask the Taoiseach about the recalling of the Dáil. I asked him why he remained silent on fundamental principles that go to the heart of a functioning parliamentary democracy, namely, the right of media to report on utterances made in this House, the right of Dáil Deputies to raise issues of legitimate public interest without being pilloried and called a liar and a thief. It is extremely sad that the Taoiseach could not at that time, as the leader of the country, come out publicly and say what was fundamentally correct and proper. For example, in the last few days, we have been treated to the Taoiseach's views on subjects as diverse as Sepp Blatter and bottle banks. With the greatest of respect, people are getting very fed up of this shallow, superficial politics.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Look in the mirror.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I put it to the Taoiseach-----
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Look in the mirror.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I can remember four years ago when the Moriarty tribunal published its report. The Taoiseach ducked and dived on that occasion before he had to come in here and belatedly accept its findings. I do not know what it is.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The silence over the last week was unacceptable and unedifying. The Taoiseach's response to my question today was extraordinary. We did not need the judge to tell us we had absolute privilege under Article 15. It is extraordinary that the Taoiseach would come in and say that. The idea that both sides would use his arguments, somehow, in the ensuing court case, is bogus. He was opening hotels and pubs and doing whatever else on that Friday, while the rest of the country was debating this issue. The Taoiseach was deliberately absent, because when he wants to speak about something - whether it is a bottle bank, the launch of a football match, or whatever - he is there to do it. It is unacceptable that he remained so silent on an issue so fundamental to our parliamentary democracy. It was an absence of leadership on the Taoiseach's part.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is not for Deputy Martin to put words in my mouth. He leads a party that was described in the past as being "slightly constitutional".
Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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See what it says about the Taoiseach's party.
Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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A leader with no followers.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Besides opening the facility for hygiene and all the rest of it, the Deputy forgot to mention I also launched the national carers' strategy week and the absorption into Irish Rural Link of the structure for meals on wheels services around the country. These are matters that are as relevant to Deputy Martin as to anybody else.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The Taoiseach cut the respite care.
Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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What about meals and deals?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If he thinks it is appropriate that these things not be commented on, then fair enough. It ill-behoves Deputy Martin to come in here speaking about leadership, because he did not do anything to further the cause of those who sought equality in marriage over the last month. In fact, the Yes Equality people-----
Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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How did we make this jump?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----had to put up the Fianna Fáil posters down the west while his party-----
Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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The Taoiseach is the man who wanted to abolish the Seanad.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----sneered and jeered at a Senator who was explaining the importance and the value of that vote.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am the only party leader who debated the issue on the public airwaves. The Taoiseach did not. He refused to debate that too. He refused to go on the airwaves to debate.
Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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When the Taoiseach is in a hole, he should stop digging.
Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Taoiseach remember the time he pushed Ursula Halligan out of the way?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Constitution is very clear about the privilege of Members elected to this House. It is unequivocal in its statement, which cannot be changed except by a referendum of the people. It was not for me to comment on the outcome of a court case-----
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There was no court case-----
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----in which a Justice of the High Court was about to issue his clarification, which he did. In keeping with my views on this for many years, the judge clearly vindicated the rights of public representatives in this House and that what they say is under privilege-----
Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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We knew that.
Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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The Taoiseach did nothing to uphold it.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----and that privilege should be used with responsibility. Deputy Martin's comments are not relevant. The situation that anybody could have taken comments from the Taoiseach about a court case pending either way-----
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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It was about a Dáil procedure, not about a court case.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It was very clear that the Constitution was not changed and cannot be changed except by the will of the people and by a vote of the people.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Why did the Taoiseach not come out and articulate that? Why did he not say that?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The right of every Member in this House, irrespective of who they represent, is clear in that Constitution.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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If it were anyone other than Denis O'Brien, he would have said it.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It does not behove the Deputy to come in with that kind of comment here.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Adams.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy cannot talk.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Míle buíochas, a Cheann Comhairle-----
Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not think any of you were at the Moriarty Tribunal.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Would Deputy Durkan please take his seat?
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I apologise.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is on his feet. Please show him some respect.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It would not have been necessary to establish a commission of investigation into certain matters pertaining to transactions entered into by IBRC if the Government had properly answered questions here in the Dáil. I have been asking these questions for over three years now. I will repeat some of them today. In 2012, an Teachta Pearse Doherty and I submitted a range of parliamentary questions about IBRC. The responses were deliberately vague and obstructive. Some of these questions related to IBRC hiring Blackstone to advise it on the sale of assets. As the Taoiseach well knows, Blackstone is an American vulture capital group, which was seeking to buy IBRC's loan book. Anybody could see the obvious conflict of interest at the heart of this arrangement, but the Minister and the Taoiseach indicated in their responses that they had no difficulties with any of this. The Taoiseach also refused to answer questions about the fees being paid to these advisers, as did the Minister. In November 2011, the Taoiseach met the head of Blackstone, Stephen Schwarzman, and his associate, Gerry Murphy. During this period, the Government appointed chair of NAMA's advisory board actually sought to appoint Gerry Murphy to this board. Again, the conflicts of interest are startling. This appointment was abandoned after Sinn Féin's parliamentary questions drew attention to the matter, but we still did not get answers to the questions we raised. Will the Taoiseach tell the Dáil what he discussed with the head of Blackstone, Mr. Schwarzman or with Mr. Murphy?
Did the Taoiseach raise concerns about the very obvious conflicts of interest in Blackstone taking on an advisory role with IBRC when it was already bidding for IBRC loans?
3:45 pm
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you, Deputy.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Tá mé ag críochnú anois.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Go raibh maith agat.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In his response to questions from me during Leaders' Questions in 2012 about the relationship between the Department of Finance and IBRC, the Taoiseach refused to answer but he said that "the highest ethical standards will be employed". Does he still stand over this assertion?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I think I met the person the Deputy mentioned on two occasions. We discussed the general state of the economy and how things were moving in the right direction. It was not for me to discuss any individual company's business.
In regard to the standards the Deputy mentioned in respect of the Department of Finance, he is aware that the Minister for Finance met his party's deputy leader and the other spokespersons or leaders of the parties yesterday to hear their proposals in so far as the commission of investigation is concerned. The issue here is that the Government was very anxious to get all of the information out into the public domain and into this House as quickly as possible. The structure to do that was to ask the special liquidator to collate all of the files and present them to the Minister for Finance by the end of August to be sent to the Committee of Public Accounts and that on its examination, if it requested a further independent investigation, that the law would be changed to allow the Comptroller and Auditor General's office to do it. That strategy was overtaken by the events of the past fortnight, in particular in respect of the case in the court and also because of the range of allegations and assertions that were made. I stress that nothing has been proven against anybody in terms of wrongdoing here. That is why we are having a two-day debate now on the terms of reference, which were approved by the Cabinet this morning and which were contributed to both by the Deputy's party and the other parties opposite, in order that this matter can be dealt with authoritatively and independently by a judge to be nominated as a sole member in charge of this commission of investigation. The Minister has been very flexible in the terms of reference, as the Deputy will be aware. He has even gone so far as to say that if issues were being dealt with or contracted by IBRC before the special liquidator was appointed, the flexibility is there to follow those particular transactions through and, also, that if other particular issues arise, consideration will be given to them.
While the Members will have the opportunity over the next two days to contribute to the debate, the intention is that the commission of investigation will be properly resourced and will deal with all of the issues that are set out between 21 January 2009 and 7 February 2013, the date that IBRC was liquidated. The Government looks forward to hearing the propositions from the various Deputies here over the next period and we should let the commission get under way and do its work. That is in the public interest and it is something the Government supports very strongly.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I asked the Taoiseach the following question in February 2012:
The Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, the bank formerly known as Anglo, has retained the services of the Blackstone Group to advise it on the sale of €30 billion of loans it has across Ireland and Britain... How come these vulture capitalists are advising on this loan but are not precluded from bidding for the debts? They are advising on the sale, but are bidding at the same time. Surely, this is a conflict of interest which runs totally contrary to the Taoiseach's election promises to straighten out these issues and make them transparent.The Taoiseach, in his response, went on his rambles around Ireland. We never got a response to these issues and now he has said that his intention all the time was to get all the information out into the public domain. The Dáil record, with the contributions of Teachta Murphy, Teachta Pearse Doherty, and myself, shows the exact opposite to be the case.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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A question please, Deputy.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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When I asked the Taoiseach what he raised with Mr. Schwarzman and Mr. Murphy, he said it was not for him to raise any company's business. He is supposed to protect the taxpayers' interests. He is the Taoiseach and this is public money. The billions and millions we are talking about belong to the people. I ask him again to give some clarity on this. We do not need a commission of investigation; the Taoiseach met them, and he has said now that he met them on two occasions. What did he discuss with them?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The state of the Irish economy and the improvements in the economy. The review, as the Deputy knows full well, will consist of-----
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am not asking the Taoiseach that.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am telling the Deputy-----
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I have his terms of reference here.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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He has such respect for the Dáil that he is going to tell the Deputy about that.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----that it will cover all transactions, activities and management decisions which occurred between 21 January 2009, which was the date of the nationalisation of IBRC, and 7 February 2013, the date of the appointment of the special liquidators to IBRC.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy will have to get that under a freedom of information request.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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On a point of order-----
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy cannot raise a point of order in respect of a reply to a question.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach is not answering the question.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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This is what happened in this place in the first instance - questions were not answered.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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That is right; he has such respect for the Dáil.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I cannot intervene in regard to answers to questions.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Murphy raised a number of issues in the Dáil and followed them through very consistently.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Because of prevarication.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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She needed to use freedom of information requests eventually to get the answers.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The response of the Government was to collate all of those files with the special liquidator and present them to the House and to the Committee of Public Accounts. Deputy Murphy made a very cogent argument in respect of a number of issues.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Taoiseach answer the question?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Events have now transpired that we are having a commission of investigation where all of these matters can be discussed and dealt with.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is there a minute of that meeting? Should I put in an freedom of information request?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Which meeting are you talking about?
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask that remarks be addressed through the Chair. Deputy Fleming is the next speaker.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As I said, we discussed the question of the improvement in the economy and the actions the Government was taking to drive that in the right direction. I must say that Deputy Murphy was very clear in her contribution here, that she had checked her sources-----
Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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We know that.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----on more than one occasion and stood by them. On that basis and on account of the issues that have transpired here, we now have a commission of investigation-----
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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They have not transpired.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----with a broad and flexible set of terms of reference, which have been contributed to by all Members of the House and which will be debated over the next two days. It is in the interests of the public-----
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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That questions be answered.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----and therefore the Government to have this commission of investigation, give the sole member proper resources to do his or her job and get on with that. The Minister for Finance will make the opening statement, I believe, at 5.30 p.m.
Tom Fleming (Kerry South, Independent)
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The legitimacy of the body politic has been undermined once more in this most recent sordid debacle in this country. The diligence and persistence through relevant questions by Deputy Catherine Murphy, in the interests of democracy and the people, has unearthed and exposed another web of the same old suspects, which are the banks and the big businesses intertwined with the political system. It again begs the question of whether we have learned anything from the previous major banking scandals and the subsequent collapse of the economy. Serious concern and alarm has been raised among the public regarding the huge scale of write-down sanctioned by IBRC with a select group of 40 big businesses and a select group of individuals receiving a combined write-off of their debt of thousands of millions of euro which, it seems, could amount to anything up to €1.2 billion. Yet again the taxpayer is shouldering this back-breaking burden. This is in contrast to what is happening at the other end of the scale where tens of thousands of ordinary householders' mortgages are being sold off to vulture capitalists. These particular funds are being sold off by IBRC. These unfortunate householders have no mortgage protection as they are outside the control of the Central Bank. There is rough justice for some who are trying to keep a roof over their heads, which is in contrast to another soft landing for the elite and the preferential treatment for these people. How will the Taoiseach ensure that this commission of investigation does not become another multi-million euro burden on the taxpayer with no definite end to the investigation?
Will the Government impose a timely deadline for the work's completion?
3:55 pm
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy. He is aware, obviously, of the fact that Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide cost the taxpayer €34 billion, which was the real burden imposed on hundreds of thousands of people over that period throughout the country, when 300,000 jobs were lost and emigration became a factor in everyday life again. Obviously, with the decisions and the challenges faced up to by the people, we are now in a very different position economically, and we hope that by creating another 40,000 jobs this year and the same next year and in 2017, we will ensure that all of the jobs that were lost are recovered and the State will be approaching full employment.
The Government has restructured the banking system, getting rid of some banks and restructuring others. The Minister met recently with the main banks to discuss the question of a reduction in variable interest rates, which is of interest to hundreds of thousands of people.
Regarding the question that the Deputy raised about the commission of investigation, as I said earlier on, when the House and the Oireachtas sign off on the terms of reference for a commission of investigation, that commission of investigation then becomes the sole responsibility of the member who is conducting its business, and that member will conduct his or her business in the way that he or she sees fit within the context of the general terms of reference. Let me repeat that no Justice in this country is a pawn of any Minister and no Justice is a pawn of any Government.
Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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There might be plenty of pawns of Denis O'Brien over there.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is not possible to politicise it. Otherwise, it does not work. One cannot give directions or diktats to a sole member who is handed the responsibility of running a commission of investigation in an authoritative, independent and objective way so that questions can be answered and the truth can be known, and that is what Government wishes in this case. So I cannot answer the question as to the person, persons or entities that may well take court cases during the course of the commission of investigation, but there is a period of six months to bring in a final report, and if for whatever reason that does not happen, a report of the work to that point will be brought forward. When we sign off here on the terms of reference, it then becomes a matter of responsibility for the member involved, and I am quite sure that the person who takes up that responsibility will run the commission of investigation in a very effective and competent fashion.
As Deputy Tom Fleming well knows, over the years when we had tribunals, they ran for ten years, for 12 years and for 14 years. This method of having commissions of investigation is far more effective-----
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We told the Government that a month ago, but it voted us down.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----and I have no doubt that this one will meet those rigorous high standards also. It is not a case of setting up a commission of investigation and then telling it how to do its work, when to do its work and what we want out of it. We cannot politicise this, and it is right to keep that distance and that objectivity there. I hope that the commission, when the terms of reference are approved by the Dáil and the Seanad, will be allowed to do its work in the way that we all want to see happen.
Tom Fleming (Kerry South, Independent)
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We could have been spared this inquiry if Deputy Catherine Murphy's questions had been answered at the outset in a fair and comprehensive manner. Unfortunately, that did not occur. This matter is best reflected in a statement by Mr. Justice Liam Hamilton regarding the beef tribunal: "I think that if the questions that were asked in the Dáil were answered in the way they are answered here, there would be no necessity for this inquiry and a lot of money and time would have been saved". That situation has been replicated in this instance.
A memo from a senior official in the Department of Finance reads: "[E]vents over the past few months have led me to question the effectiveness of the management team in IBRC ... I am concerned that the reputation of the IBRC and by extension the State has been damaged as a result of these events." Interestingly enough, according to a 2012 OECD perception report, Ireland had one of the lowest levels of public trust in the governance of State institutions.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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A question, please, Deputy.
Tom Fleming (Kerry South, Independent)
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According to the statistics, only 26% of Irish people had trust in the Government. Is is a revealing figure, given our recent and undistinguished history. That is why there is a need for a robust, forensic inquiry.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am sorry, Deputy, but we have gone way over time. Could you put your question, please?
Tom Fleming (Kerry South, Independent)
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It is coming. We will need a forensic inquiry to drill down and reveal the true facts. There is an urgent need to redeem public trust in the reform of post-crash Ireland and to restore our international reputation as being a trustworthy, transparent and fair country in which to set up business. Will the Taoiseach ensure that the investigation will give a breakdown of each individual transaction, the exposure and the types of write-down that were given so as to ensure full transparency?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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First of all, I have been a supporter for a very long time of the idea that Dáil questions should be answered as fully and as completely as possible-----
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputies, please.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I try to do that-----
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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It is an art form.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Government Deputies not give the Taoiseach a standing ovation?
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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You are doing a great job standing over there, I can tell you. Remember when you were over here.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Durkan should be feting the Taoiseach for that.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputies, please.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I try to do that with the questions that come into my own Department in so far as that is possible. I remind Deputy Tom Fleming that this Government restructured and reformed the freedom of information system, which allows Deputies to ask questions in respect of information they look for that is not handled by Ministers. There are particular personnel in every Department dealing with that, and I know that many Deputies have been able to get possibly more information, or certainly an extensive volume of information, out of which may come the particular or specific answer that they wish to get. It might be, I suppose, sometimes more appropriate if one were to work backwards or focus the question very precisely. With the volume of material that comes into some Departments, it is not as easy as it might seem.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Independent)
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So it is Deputy Catherine Murphy's fault.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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A poor question.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Public figures and politicians the world over have never been in the higher echelons of public trust. I think the bankers were beneath the politicians there for some time. I am not sure where it is now.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Independent)
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The Government is bringing trust down further.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Can I guarantee Deputy Fleming that he is going to get answers to all the questions here? What I want to say to him is that the terms of reference to be debated-----
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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After the election.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----and approved by the House will cover all transactions, activities and management decisions that occurred between 21 January 2009, which was the date of nationalisation of IBRC, and 7 February 2013, the date of the appointment of the special liquidators to IBRC, which dealt with particular matters. That will become a matter for the judge in question, Deputy. It is not for anybody in this House to attempt to interfere-----
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Independent)
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It is a matter for the terms of reference.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----in the work of the sole member once the terms of reference have been signed off and approved.
Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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The terms of reference should not be set in cement. We should debate them.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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That is what we are doing.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That person will run the business in the way that he or she sees fit, and do a proper, competent, professional-----
Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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What about the fraudulent interest charges before 2009?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----and independent job. That, Deputy, I hope will deal with all of the issues that arise with regard to assertions and allegations about this person, that person, this entity and that entity so that clarity can be achieved, which is in the public interest and which the Government wants to see arising from this commission of investigation.
Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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What about the fraudulent interest charges before 2009?
James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Listen to the banker.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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That completes Leaders' Questions. We will move on to questions to An Taoiseach.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Independent)
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What of fraudulent deals since 2013?
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Mathews had his chance.
Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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There were fraudulent interest charges from the 1990s.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Mathews had his chance, but he left.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Leave Deputy Mathews alone.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Independent)
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The Government is limiting us.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Mathews did not have the courage to stay. He could not stick the pace.
Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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The Minister of State will hear the evidence later.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Independent)
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What is that?
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I was not talking to Deputy Shortall.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Independent)
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The Minister of State would stick anything. He would stand over anything. He will have to be prised out of that seat.