Dáil debates

Thursday, 14 May 2015

12:00 pm

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Reports this morning that the banks will not reduce the variable interest rate on mortgages make for disturbing reading. As the Tánaiste is well aware, there are over 300,000 variable rate mortgage holders in Ireland paying, on average, 2% higher than anywhere else in Europe. That is an extra €4,000 per year that is putting an intolerable burden on many families. If this is not addressed, it will lead to more home owners finding themselves in arrears.

There is a German group of MPs who have been visiting the Houses for the past two days and they are in the Visitors Gallery at the moment. They are members of the Friends of Ireland in the Bundestag and I had the pleasure of meeting them this morning. It would not be an overestimation to say they are somewhat amazed that mortgage holders here are paying 4.5% in interest, as opposed to 2% in Germany. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, met the Governor of the Central Bank on behalf of the Government and expressed its concern at a routine meeting approximately one month ago. The Governor indicated he would prepare a report by June. At the time, the Tánaiste said she believed a levy should be placed on banks if they did not address or reduce the variable interest rates.

Representatives of AIB have come before the finance committee and offered a cut of 0.25%. That is something but it is by no means enough when one considers the extent to which banks are gouging mortgage holders, as the amount they take is well above the cost of funding. Representatives of PTSB were before the finance committee yesterday and, notwithstanding the wishes and views of members of the committee, they retorted with standard banking language, obfuscated their responsibility to the taxpayer and mortgage holders and refused to accept that they were rebuilding their balance sheets on the backs of the 70,000 mortgage holders that they have on their books with a variable interest rate.

Today it is reported that all the Governor of the Central Bank can say to the banks is that it is advisable to reduce the variable rates to head off any political response on the issue. That is a rather weak response from the Governor, who is somebody I respect. It is not the full extent to which the matter should be addressed.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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A question, please, Deputy.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Surely the banks have got the message at this stage if the Government is expressing its message in the way we would have thought. Clearly, they believe this is a cotton wool exercise in the Government's approach and that it is taking a "softly softly" approach. Does the Tánaiste firmly believe the banks should reduce the variable interest rate? Will she address the issue today? Just as importantly, if she believes there should be a reduction, what will the Government do about it? Is it just a matter of waiting until June for the report from the Governor or will the Government address the issue by imposing a levy on the banks? They have been given adequate time and they know the concerns - they are real - of the Government. They certainly know the concerns of this side of the House. Will the Tánaiste move quickly to address this matter and make it very clear to the banks that they either act now or the Government will impose a levy on them?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I welcome our friends from the Bundestag in Germany. We had a banking collapse, which people know happened on the watch of the Deputy's party and cost the country much money. We are in the process of recovering much of that. Nonetheless, a strong element in the portfolio of lending built up by the banks comprises tracker mortgages on which the banks are losing money. Part of the action of banks in their charges for standard variable rate mortgages is to seek to recover, as the Deputy suggested, costs from the losses incurred with respect to tracker mortgages. No doubt, there may yet be action that could be taken within a European context, with the agreement of our German friends, with regard to the tracker mortgage issue that could provide some relief into the Irish banking system. That is a wider issue and not the subject of the question.

The standard variable rate mortgage rates are excessive in terms of cost and I have said that on a number of occasions. In recent days, the Minister for Finance and the Governor of the Central Bank have met on mortgage issues. I understand that at their meeting, the issue of mortgage interest rates was discussed. There are issues for the banks both with respect to tracker and standard variable rate mortgages. The Governor provided an update to the Minister on the ongoing research that he and his officials are carrying out on the issue of the standard variable rate charges. The Governor and the Minister noted that the standard variable rates charged in Ireland are higher than other euro area countries and have not fallen in line with European Central Bank wholesale rates.

The Central Bank has submitted its research to the Department of Finance and it is expected to be dealt with in the next few days. The Minister, Deputy Noonan, and his officials will review the research ahead of meeting representatives of the six main mortgage lenders in the coming weeks. I have advised the main banks that they need to consider their pricing policies with respect to standard variable rate mortgage holders. If they are not inclined to listen to the difficulties that people are facing as a consequence of their pricing policies, there are other mechanisms of addressing this.

I have referenced that before. Given that the Irish taxpayer bailed them out for extraordinary amounts following Fianna Fáil's actions, the banks would be wise to listen to the advice in relation to their pricing policies and to provide better deals for their customers.

12:10 pm

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Sure, they are not listening.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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However, they do have a problem in relation to tracker mortgages and anyone who looks at the issue must consider all of the problems faced by the banks.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Tánaiste for her reply and for the history lesson on the economy and how it got there.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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There was no harm in that.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Maybe we can look at a little bit of recent history.

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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It is Frankfurt's way.

Photo of Robert DowdsRobert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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It was in case Deputy Dooley was suffering from amnesia.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I doubt that shivers are running down the spines of any bankers based on the response the Tánaiste has given.

Photo of Eamonn MaloneyEamonn Maloney (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Was that the bank guarantee?

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I do not think bankers feel the Government is about to impose a levy as a result of the approach they have taken in opposition to Government policy. The Tánaiste has, frankly, bought a large supply of the banks' Kool-Aid. The notion that tracker mortgages are the root of all evil is not the case and it would be worth the Tánaiste's while to look into it. If that was the issue, one could turn to the decision that was taken at the EU Council meeting in June 2012, which the Tánaiste and others hailed as seismic and a phenomenal game changer with the potential to resolve much of the legacy issues. Within that, the overhang from the tracker mortgage issue could have been dealt with. However, we discovered here on Tuesday that the Government never even applied to the ESM for funding under that decision as it now believes the banks are resolving the issue without recourse to the ESM. Does the Tánaiste know how the banks are doing it without recourse to the ESM? It is on the backs of the 300,000 variable interest rate mortgage holders in the State. The balance sheets are being repaired and the Government is preparing to sell its stake in the banks all on the backs of those 300,000 mortgage holders. The Government needs to come clean on that. Will the Tánaiste at least reiterate the Government's previous statement to the effect that it is prepared to impose a levy on the banks if they fail to acquiesce to an appropriate rate reduction commensurate with the cost of funds today rather than in the past? That is what we all want to see.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Well, Timmy, you seem to be a bit of a Clare Bourbon. I do not know how much Deputy Dooley remembers and how much he has forgotten, but he certainly seems to have learned very little. Ireland needs a banking system that functions properly.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Remember when the Tánaiste was going to burn the bondholders.

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste is sounding like a banker herself at this stage.

Photo of Michael FitzmauriceMichael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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It is Frankfurt's way.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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When we came into office, we faced the depredations of Fianna Fáil which its representatives seem, like the Bourbons in France, to have forgotten completely.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The Government has bought the Kool-Aid.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Do not mind the Bourbons; look after the mortgage holders.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Can we have order, please?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Deputy Dooley is the Clare version of it. Deputy Dooley said he wants a properly functioning banking system.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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We do not have it.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I am not sure Fianna Fáil is converted to that idea yet, but it is absolutely critical.

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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What is the Government doing about variable rate mortgages? That is the question.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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What we have in this country are banks with two particular portfolios of mortgages; tracker mortgages and variable rate mortgages.

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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The Government is four-square behind the banks. The Tánaiste is guaranteeing the banks here today.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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It is a bankers' charter.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I hope some of the bankers are listening. I know Fianna Fáil invited them in when it was in government.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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They will be happy with what the Tánaiste is saying anyway.

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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They will be delighted with the Tánaiste.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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They will be having a party.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The bankers were in there on the evenings the fatal decisions were made that wrecked the banks. That was Fianna Fáil's contribution to what happened. When it comes to the banks, I do not expect them to fetch up being grateful to the Irish people as they seem to have collective amnesia at times.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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It is spreading to the Tánaiste.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Fianna Fáil arranged a mortgage called the promissory note of €30 billion for this country, which was to be paid within ten years.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste was going to burn all the bondholders. Does she remember that?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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By the way, Fianna Fáil took an interest holiday on the first two years, which were the last two years of its Government, and left us to renegotiate that.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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The Government is burning the variable mortgage holders.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The only people the Government burned were those who voted for it.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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When it comes to renegotiating better deals for our taxpayers in relation to banking, we have done so with the promissory notes. People from Fianna Fáil and other parties told us the changes would not work but they have ended up saving the country an enormous amount of money.

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Talk to the variable mortgage holders.

Photo of Robert DowdsRobert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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The Government saved us €9 billion.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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We are still paying every penny of it.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Bourbons are behind the Tánaiste.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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As we resolve this issue with the banks, the people who are paying those rates will receive reductions. If they do not, there are other mechanisms. One of those is a levy, but there are others as well.

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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"The Government does not have the power to direct, but it has the power to influence". Does the Tánaiste remember that phrase?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I am resolved to see that if the banks continue to turn a deaf ear to the discussion that is ongoing, expressed by both the Minister for Finance and the Central Bank, those banks will have to face other consequences.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Yesterday, the Minister for Health told reporters that maternity services may be closed at a number of smaller hospitals. He said this against the backdrop of his visit to Portlaoise and his meeting with bereaved parents who tragically lost newborns there in recent years. This follows his announcement last week of the establishment of a steering group to advise on the development of a national maternity strategy, which is to report by the end of the year. Irrespective of our political views in the House, we are all deeply concerned at the series of tragic outcomes at a number of maternity units across the State, including at Portlaoise and at Cavan in my constituency. Our thoughts are with the grieving parents and their families. We all want to know the full facts as to why these distressing events took place and what must now be done to ensure as far as humanly possible that there are no further such incidents.

I must ask the following in the context of what the Minister for Health said yesterday and repeated this morning at the Joint Committee on Health and Children. It is fuelling further concern and distress at a time when we clearly have not yet got the report of the new steering group. The Minister is being pre-emptive in suggesting the closure of any number of maternity units. Will the Tánaiste undertake to ensure that these sad, tragic and distressing outcomes are not employed to serve a programme of closures which is a long-standing objective of some within our health services? On foot of her position in government, will the Tánaiste ensure instead that all appropriate measures to address the deficiencies and needs identified out of all the reports, some of which have yet to be presented including the one on the Cavan incidents, are acted on or introduced?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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First, I also express my sympathy with the families who lost children and who very bravely met the Minister over a prolonged period yesterday in Portlaoise. I understand from media reports that they told him their personal stories.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Were you talking to them?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is difficult to contemplate a more distressing scenario for parents than the death of a baby during childbirth or shortly after delivery.

It is all the more difficult for women in that I do not think anyone is quite as vulnerable as a woman when she is having a baby. I cannot say enough to express how sorry I am for the families and parents, in particular the mothers, involved. Having heard the distressing news about a further death in Cavan General Hospital and considering what the mother, the parents and the family must be going through, I offer my sympathy.

Before answering Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin's specific questions, we should be able to agree that the objective ought to be a health policy which focuses on the best health outcomes for mother and baby and the safe delivery of the baby. These babies are very much wanted. The best outcomes have to be at the core of our approach to maternity services in Ireland. Nothing other than this as a policy will serve women and babies as well as they might be served. It used to be said baby deaths and maternal mortality rates were exceptionally low in Ireland. I do not know the international figures and I am not an expert in the area. However, as almost every woman, mother and father has been shocked, I have been shocked by the repeated reports of deaths associated with maternity services. We need to agree that the best health outcome for mother and baby is the policy we should agree.

In that context, I welcome the decision by the Minister for Health, Deputy Leo Varadkar, to have the national maternity strategy review carried out this year. The strategy will provide the policy to underpin the women and infants health programme. The steering group advising on the strategy met for the first time last week and I understand it had a very useful discussion. The group is made up of people with wide experience, both in terms of personal experience and professional qualifications. That is as it should be. We need to agree that the core of the policy has to be one that promotes the best outcomes for mother and baby.

12:20 pm

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin has a supplementary question.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is in total agreement that I take my second opportunity. This has to be the case. We cannot have a pre-emptive and prescriptive addressing of these problems and the Minister for Health's comments yesterday equated to such. For him to suggest in the context of these tragic outcomes that maternity services at a "number" of so-called smaller hospitals may close is the wrong answer, one which was offered before the review group had even commenced its work. His statement undoubtedly fits the agenda of those who are advocates of further centralisation and subscribe to the controlling obstetricians' view of child delivery. I say "controlling" obstetricians rather than obstetricians in general. I do not view expectant mothers as ill - far from it - or in need of consultant care generally. The overwhelming number require the services and support of a midwife or midwives. Nowhere in the eight recommendations made in the report on Portlaoise hospital is there a mention of closure. It is within the gift of the system to address the deficiencies and needs in order to ensure a safe service for women and the child or children they are expecting. That is absolutely what the Tánaiste has said and I agree that it must at all times be the critical focus.

I again appeal to the Tánaiste because I am concerned that an agenda is being oxygenised. She should ensure the assessment process is allowed to finish and not allow those with an agenda to seize the moment and set the scene for the closure of any number of the remaining 19 maternity units across the country. Will she defend the right of women to access a safe service of their choice and not to be pressed against their will into heavily centralised conveyor belt child birthing settings?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I thank the Deputy for agreeing that the best outcomes for mothers and babies are the key objective. HIQA's Portlaoise hospital report makes eight recommendations, of which I want to pick out two. In terms of the recommendations to the Department of Health, the third is to develop a national maternity strategy. In terms of the recommendations to the HSE, the sixth is to develop a strong clinical network. These are very important recommendations and, in that context, what has happened is that the Minister has developed the group to further develop the national maternity strategy. That is the right approach because people have to sit down and look at where we are now, what are the resources and what will produce the best outcomes. That is good and should be welcomed.

The other recommendation is to develop strong clinical networks. We have a long tradition in maternity services in this country which has been very good in terms of the commitment of the people who work in the services to the health of mothers and babies. They are the obstetricians, the midwives and all others who work in the services and their commitment goes back generations. In the case of Portlaoise hospital, what has happened - perhaps it is something that might be explored in the case of Cavan General Hospita - is that a network has been developed in the context of the Dublin Midlands Hospital Group. The Coombe Women and Infant University Hospital, a recognised international centre of excellence, has, as we all know, a very high number of births annually. We know that there is a correlation, particularly when there are difficulties, between births which offer challenges to the mother or the baby and medical expertise with a high volume of experience. We know this from other areas.

The relationship and protocol established by the Coombe and Portlaoise hospitals make a lot of sense and will have to be resourced. I have had a private conversation with the Minister about the matter. It is a good approach, but it requires resourcing. We know in the case of Portlaoise hospital that there have been significant additional resources. There have also been failures in the practice of what we have come to expect as a people from medical services. Elements of it, including the management issues that arise, are under examination. That is the right way to approach the matter.

Photo of Maureen O'SullivanMaureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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I wish to discuss the issue of children. We have had appalling examples of mistreatment of children in the past. We had the Magdalen laundries, the industrial schools and mother and baby homes. We have seen abuse in families, by members of the clergy and in swimming circles. The children involved were deprived of innocence, laughter and fun, all of which should be associated with childhood. We have had commissions, reports and inquiries. While life is better for the majority of children today, I can guarantee that in 20, 30 or 40 years time we will have reports, inquiries and commissions to deal with the way certain children are treated today. I am talking about children in homeless and direct provision accommodation.

We are told that one third of all asylum seekers in those conditions are children. They can be there for anything between one and seven years. The recent first quarter report by the Dublin Region Homeless Executive was disturbing. While there is movement out of homelessness, there is an increase in the number of people becoming homeless. For example, there has been a 62% increase in the number of children in homeless services since June.

Neither set of children is living in a natural family environment. There are issues around safety, living in confined spaces and food, given the fact that the children are reliant on fast food with high fat content levels. We know of the country's difficulties with obesity. There is no space to play and there is a lack of stability, as the children are being moved from one homeless accommodation to another. More displacement is expected because we are approaching the high tourism season.

There are also issues with schools. Either children must travel long distances to their original schools or they must move schools. One can imagine a child entering a new school, being asked where he or she lives and replying that it is in the bed and breakfast or hotel down the road. There is a stigma. We are storing up severe psychological, emotional and personal developmental difficulties for these children.

Recently, the Children's Rights Alliance awarded the Government a C on the question of children. Two days ago, the European Commission repeated its call for Government action on child poverty and child care. Will the issue of homelessness, particularly as it relates to children in inappropriate settings, be viewed as an emergency of great urgency before more damage is done to the children of this country?

12:30 pm

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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As the Deputy knows, the Government has committed to probably the largest ever investment in social housing because most of the families to which she referred would be interested in obtaining social housing as the solution to their housing issues.

Photo of Michael FitzmauriceMichael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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Some €300 million.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That programme is under way. Councils have been given allocations and I want to see them starting work on the programme as soon as possible. In addition, the number of voided properties for which councils were given funding in recent years, including this year, should result in an extra 1,000 units being available this year-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Not worth a penny.

Photo of Michael FitzmauriceMichael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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It is not enough.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----depending in particular on the co-operation and level of activity of Dublin City Council. If we can increase supply significantly, be it through reopening and refurbishing voided properties or building new properties as fast as we can and looking for co-operation, which we are getting, from the voluntary housing associations in making additional housing provision, this will be the greatest relief to the problems experienced by families at risk of homelessness.

Given the fact that we have a significant number of families in rented accommodation, I initiated - it was actually last June on a formal basis but happened some months before that - the protocol for dealing with families who were at risk of losing their rental accommodation. If anyone of whom the Deputy or any other Deputy is aware-----

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Lots.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----is at risk of homelessness because his or her lease might be coming to an end or the landlord has made an approach about raising the rent, causing the person concern, I am asking people in that situation and public representatives to get people to go to the community welfare services of the Department of Social Protection. We have already negotiated, in conjunction with quite a number of voluntary organisations such as Threshold and the Simon Communities, the renewal of leases or the sourcing of other accommodation for those families. I think-----

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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There is no accommodation.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We have already-----

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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There is none. Representatives of Focus Ireland were in Leinster House yesterday. If the Tánaiste had listened to them-----

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy, please.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Can I just say-----

Photo of Kevin HumphreysKevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Some 4,500 agreements.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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-----she would have heard that we were in a crisis.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Please, Deputy.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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For God's sake. The Tánaiste would want to wake up.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Can I just say that we have already this year negotiated 4,500-----

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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I can show the Tánaiste the figures.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry, but the Tánaiste has the floor.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Would Deputy Ellis do me the courtesy of listening?

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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I will not listen to spoofing.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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The Tánaiste is not listening.

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Ellis left a fair few families in crisis.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste has the floor.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We have already negotiated 4,500 rental agreements for families under the Department of Social Protection.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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Forty families per month are becoming homeless, in case the Tánaiste does not know.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Please, order.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Sorry, but I am just going to repeat the figures. We have already negotiated this year 4,500 rentals through the rent supplement scheme. Deputy Ellis should not be saying to people that their only alternative is to register as homeless.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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I have not said that.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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He should get them to go to the community welfare service-----

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The community welfare officers-----

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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They have no alternatives.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Excuse me, but this is Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan's question.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----where they will be helped to negotiate.

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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The crisis is out of control. Has the Tánaiste not copped on?

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste to conclude, please.

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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You left a fair few families in crisis, Deputy Ellis.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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This is Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan's question.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I want to address-----

Photo of Patrick O'DonovanPatrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Does Deputy Ellis have anything to say about Priory Hall?

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste does not know what she is on about with her high bleeding tactics.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Could we settle down, please?

Photo of Patrick O'DonovanPatrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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What about Deputy Ellis's friends in Priory Hall?

Photo of Dinny McGinleyDinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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What about the likes of Priory Hall?

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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No friends there.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste has the floor. Could we settle down, please?

Photo of Patrick O'DonovanPatrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Ellis has gone very quiet all of a sudden.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I want to address Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan's question. There are two ways of helping families at risk of becoming homeless. I think that there is agreement across this House that that is a major priority. The first is to increase supply, build houses-----

Photo of Michael FitzmauriceMichael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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In 2016.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----and get houses for lease or rent for families that need housing. We are doing that.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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The Government is not.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Already this year, we have negotiated 4,500-----

Photo of Patrick O'DonovanPatrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Does Deputy Ellis apologise to the people of-----

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----rental arrangements funded by rent supplement.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy O'Donovan would know about the builders.

Photo of Patrick O'DonovanPatrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Ellis would know about the demolitions boys. He demolished enough.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Quiet, please.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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What I want to say to Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan is that people having to register as homeless should be the absolute last resort. It is extraordinarily and exceptionally difficult for families that move into temporary accommodation such as hotels to look after their children properly. We want families with children in homes that they can call their own and where they do not need to be in a hotel or hostel-type environment. I agree with the Deputy that it is a very difficult situation for the children. It is an even more difficult situation for the parents looking after them and attending to them.

Photo of Maureen O'SullivanMaureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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I wish to highlight a number of other aspects by referring to a home of which I know that has been providing accommodation for women who have been abused or made the difficult journey out of addiction and into recovery. Fifteen women live in the house. Incidentally, it is in danger of losing some of its funding. Between the 15 women, there are 11 children who are in care. The women are now in a position to take their children out of care and back into a family home, but they do not have accommodation. This is another group of children who are badly affected by our housing crisis. Perhaps the motive for those women who are on their recovery journeys out of addiction is to get their children back. Seventeen year olds and 18 year olds are coming out of care for whom the HSE cannot access accommodation.

I am involved with another group that works in the Dublin area with homeless women who are pregnant or have just had their babies. The group is receiving repeated calls from maternity hospitals about taking women in, but it only has one set of premises. One of the women who has been there for a number of months is ready to move on, but there is nowhere for her to go. She is depriving someone with a newborn in the maternity hospital of a place with the group. A woman from Kildare with a premature baby cannot get anyone in Kildare to accept rent supplement. She is seeking a place in the house in Dublin.

There are 21 supported accommodation places for pregnant women or women with babies in Dublin who are homeless. We have children in care because of homelessness. This statistic is not being taken into account. If we examined the cost of foster care as opposed to the cost of providing homes for people, there would probably be a cost saving. Under the Constitution, our State guarantees protection for the family. The family is "indispensable to the welfare of the Nation". I listened to all that the Tánaiste stated. In time, those solutions will make a difference. In the meantime, though, the reality for those in emergency accommodation like bed and breakfasts and hotels, particularly children and the other groups that I mentioned, is appalling.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

12:40 pm

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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So far this year through the Department of Social Protection there have been 4,500 negotiated rent agreements in respect of which we are paying a rent supplement to new families and individuals. The rent supplement provision is a very important service for families.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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It is important that the Tánaiste answer the question.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Deputy and her colleague beside her were members of Dublin City Council. Dublin City Council has had the practice of closing large volumes of accommodation units when they become vacant. Local authorities have been heavily resourced by the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, by the then Minister of State with responsibility, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, and more recently by the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Kelly, to bring these back into use.

In the case of a number of the families about whom the Deputy is speaking, accommodation where the empty properties have been redone are in locations where there is other council housing and they would be highly acceptable, as I know and the Deputy knows, to many of the people concerned provided they come on stream as fast as Dublin City Council can do that. Through the protocol with the housing organisations and the support services, we have made provision for up to 1,500 agreements. In addition, across a range of local authorities new people coming in get the housing assistance payment, HAP. That is also working.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Tánaiste.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Deputy spoke specifically about women rehabilitating out of drug addiction or some other form of addiction and I ask her to give me the specific details. The community welfare service works specifically with the homeless services in the HSE and the different local authorities, particularly Dublin City Council. If the Deputy can give me details of some of those I will ask the community welfare service to see if it can give any additional support.