John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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184. To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform in relation to possible public service pay restoration, if he will confirm the level at which it is anticipated public service pay will be restored; the grades at which restoration will take effect; if he will confirm which pay-related deductions he will seek to cut and by what margin; if it is likely that there will be a link between the restoration of pay and the provision of additional productivity by public sector staff; if any move to restore pay will take into consideration the terms of the 2013 Haddington Road agreement; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [18415/15]

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Reform, innovation, doing things more smartly and more efficiently, as well as having regard for new technologies, are now a constant part of the norm for public servants, as they are for the private sector. As I said last week, they are now hard-wired into public services. When I took office four and a half years ago, I was given two jobs, namely, to balance the books as Minister with responsibility for public expenditure and to be the first Minister of Cabinet rank to reform the public sector. A remarkable amount of reform has been carried out since. That reform is not a crisis-only event but needs to be a constant part in the way public services are delivered. This will ensure quality public services are available to all citizens which are not subject to boom and bust. It will mean people who have grown used to a service are not suddenly deprived of it simply because we cannot afford to provide it. That is a sustainable future on which we have set our sights and that we are determined to achieve.

John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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There appear to be conflicting views from the Government. Would the Minister accept that many people in the public service have seen their pay dramatically reduced over the last number of years? It started with the pension levy which, I accept, this Government did not introduce. Even those in the public service who were not entitled to any pension had their hours increased and sick leave reduced.

During the week, Mr. Robert Watt, Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, said that public service staff will have to continue to implement work practice reforms and improve productivity in future. In addition, the Minister for Health, Deputy Varadkar, says he would prefer more staff and fewer earning more. Would the Minister, Deputy Howlin, agree that the time has come to lift the moratorium, if we are to get a decent public service? It has not happened, however. An example of that is where class sizes have increased but the number of teachers has been reduced.

Increasing expenditure in the public service also increases consumer spending which allows the economy to grow. What are the Minister's views on lifting the moratorium on public service recruitment, which many in the trade union movement have said is essential?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I am conscious that there are real bottlenecks because we have not had the capacity and have been downsizing. That is why, last year, I moved to recruit more gardaí and in the budget I announced 1,700 more teachers. We are recruiting more SNAs and are recruiting nurses again. They are front-line staff. That is part of what I have described as the dividend from the reforms we brought about.

We have abolished the moratorium and are now devolving to each agency and Department control of their own pay bill. They will therefore determine, within an agreed pay framework, what level of individual skills they need to provide their services. With the exception of one adjustment at secondary level, we have always maintained the pupil-teacher ratio which required us to hire a lot more teachers.

As regards the Haddington Road agreement, which I have been responsible for, we did not have a general reduction in pay. We had a reduction in pay for those earning over €65,000 per annum. Even for those, it ranged from 5.5% at the bottom to 10% at the top, to be fair.

I will make a final point so that there will be no confusion about it. In terms of the pay recovery we are now involved in, it is my intention that the pay ceilings I put in place immediately on taking office, will be retained.

John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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In the spring economic statement we were told that there is €1.5 billion to spend in the October budget, and that the money would be split between taxes and spending increases. However, we were also told that the public sector rises would have to come from the €750 million within the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

Are we talking about a sum between €250 million and €300 million in 2016? The Minister has also insisted that all cuts to public service pay and pensions cannot be measured over the next year. There was a total of €2.2 billion in cuts over that number of years. Can the Minister give some indication to the House today in that respect? If the cuts were €2.2 billion, the Minister has €750 million to spend within his remit. That does not add up to increasing pay levels by much in the public service, however, as well as dealing with the moratorium.

I revert to the two questions I asked earlier. Will the Minister comment on what the Minister for Health, Deputy Varadkar, said, that he would prefer more staff with fewer earning more, and what Mr. Robert Watt, Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform said? If we cut €2.2 billion and have €750 million, it does not add up. How will that be spent?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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First, €2.2 billion is the actual value to the budget of the series of cuts provided for in the FEMPI legislation.

John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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Yes.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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That is why I am saying we cannot undo that in one fell swoop because it would undo all the progress we have made. Obviously, however, that is not the totality of the pay bill reductions because we have also reduced numbers by 10% over the same period.

Pay restoration or pay recovery will be part of the expenditure side of the equation, which is understood. I have not put a figure on it, nor have I brought a figure to Cabinet concerning what will be determined in that regard. I have a figure in mind myself.

We will engage with the public service unions. Throughout my dealings with them over four and a bit years, they have been reasonable and understanding. Every public servant - each garda, teacher, civil servant and local government worker - has a vested interest in our country recovering so we can have quality public services and a place in which families can thrive and find jobs.