Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Last night, behind closed doors, the Government agreed to legislation that will result in arms of the State becoming debt-collecting agencies for utility companies. There was no fanfare, no press release, no standing on Government steps with the Taoiseach on one side of the Tánaiste and the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, on the other. I must put it to the Tánaiste: where has the basic decency of the Labour Party gone? We now have a situation in which an arm of the State will be a debt-collecting agency for a utility company, with no ability-to-pay clause in the primary legislation. One in eight children are living in poverty, and people are struggling on social welfare payments, although there has been a huge cut in those payments, including the cost of education allowance, the fuel allowance, the back to school allowance, the one-parent family allowance, farm assist, household packages and respite care grants. The CSO's recent figures show that there has been a 2% decrease in real family income. There is huge pressure on families, yet we now have a situation in which people in extreme poverty will be dragged to the courts and attachment orders will be made to their social welfare payments or their basic wages.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Dip in their pockets.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Tánaiste believe it is decent and fair that ability to pay is not taken into account? We have raised this time and again. People who advocate for those on the margins have stated that an ability-to-pay clause needs to be put in place, but it has not been. We are now being told by the Minister, Deputy Kelly, that it will be taken into account. If it is so important, why was it not put into the primary legislation in the first place?

At this late stage, I would urge the reversal of this decision to allow the Government to pick the pockets of people who simply cannot afford to pay. They are queuing up in the offices of community welfare officers every day of the week looking for additional social welfare payments because they are struggling. The Government is now saying in primary legislation that it is going to put the hands of Irish Water into the pockets of people living in poverty.

Would the Tánaiste agree that this legislation on the attachment of orders to social welfare payments and lower wages is an attack on vulnerable people, that it is unfair and not a decent thing by any stretch of the imagination, and that it will cause huge hardship to many families who are already living on the poverty line? The Tánaiste should bear in mind that these figures are borne out by the recent CSO surveys, which show that real household income is falling and that one in eight children are living in extreme poverty in this country today.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The most recent CSO figures show that, thankfully, a lot of people are going back to work, and the biggest way to improve any family's income is to go back to work. Recalling reductions in social welfare, I do not think people will ever forget that Fianna Fáil cut people's social welfare by €16 to €17 a week. That is its legacy, what it has to live with and what it has to explain to people. That is the cause of the fall in people's incomes in respect of social welfare. Deputy Kelleher was a Minister of State at the time and was probably party to those decisions.

In regard to the Deputy's point about Irish Water, over 1.2 million people have registered with Irish Water. At the moment, as Members of the House are aware, the bills are going out. In fact, the Deputy will probably know from conversations that a lot of people are pleasantly surprised to find they have actually beaten the cap. However, where they have not beaten the cap, the quarterly charge for a larger household is €65.

This decision by the Government is essentially to distinguish between those who cannot pay and those who will not pay, and, in the case of people who will not pay, to lay out a clear path for the recovery of civil debt. We know there are a lot of Deputies in this House who earn over €80,000 gross, so I think they are people who can afford to pay. As we know from the record of the House, however, a lot of them have said they will not pay, and they want everybody else to pay for them. That is not acceptable.

Coming back to the question, the first thing about this legislation, which is based on a report by the Law Reform Commission in 2010, is that it removes from people any threat of imprisonment in regard to civil debt. The threat of imprisonment in regard to civil debt, as I am sure people know, goes back to the times of Charles Dickens, when people were imprisoned as debtors. It is a very fundamental reform to take that threat away. I have to say I am very pleased that various organisations have welcomed this legislation.

The second issue is how we set out the details of the legislation and how we distinguish between the people Deputy Kelleher was rightly concerned about and the people on good incomes who just say: "Let everyone else pay for me. I am not paying." Notwithstanding the fact that our water services cost a lot of money, and despite all the work that Irish Water is doing, we know about the leaks and other difficulties such as lead in pipes that were not addressed for decades by local authorities. This reform of court-related debt procedures will be dealt with by the Department of Justice and Equality and we will then have a series of other reforms. The Bill now needs to be drafted.

With regard to social protection, if somebody on social protection is faced with debts, we have long-established principles which remain absolutely intact in regard to how and when money can be deducted from a debt. It has been subjected to very detailed discussion in this House at different times and actually deals with very small amounts.

More importantly, we want to have easy pay systems, in particular through An Post, something which is under discussion and is currently being finalised, through the household budgeting scheme. It will allow people to pay a small amount on a weekly basis. I resent the implications of the Deputy.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Is this a Second Stage speech?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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People on social welfare pay their bills and meet their household commitments just like everybody else. We know that people struggle to pay, but to imply that somehow or other those in receipt of social welfare do not pay their bills is a slander.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is not what he said.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is not what he said.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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A lot of people will resent what the Tánaiste just said. The point I made clearly is that it not that people will not pay but that they simply cannot pay. The Tánaiste should know that. Her legacy is that there are 1,000 children in this city sleeping in emergency accommodation every night as a direct result of her decisions with regard to the cap on rent allowance. I will take lectures from many people but on this issue, I will not take a lecture from the Tánaiste.

There are thousands of families who simply cannot afford to make a contribution to bills for water because they do not have the money. That is evidenced by the fact that people are queuing up before community welfare officers across the State week in, week out to try to access additional payments because of the cuts to social welfare over the past number of years.

I will name the cuts. There have been cuts to the education allowance, fuel allowance, back to school allowance, one-parent family allowance, farm assist, household packages and respite care grants and a cap on rent allowance. That is the legacy of the Tánaiste. The Government will pass legislation which will take no account of ability to pay. Reference was made to the fact those in the House earn €84,000 a year. Nobody in the Chamber is on social welfare but there are hundreds of thousands of people in the country who are and who cannot afford to make their weekly payments. I am not making up those figures; every statistic and survey show that there is a major problem with poverty in the country. Some one in eight children are living in abject poverty. Some 30% of household incomes are on the breadline.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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A question please, Deputy.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is very true that the pathway out of poverty is returning to work. However, many of those returning to work are on zero hour contracts or are in employment that gives them no security whatsoever. The Tánaiste should not applaud herself and pat herself on the back. Would she accept that there are families living in poverty who simply cannot afford to make a contribution to the cost of establishing Irish Water and pay for water? The proposed attachment order system is draconian, an attack on poor people and does not take into account ability to pay.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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After the Deputy and his party had bankrupted the country, his special contribution to poor people, as a member of the Government, was to reduce the minimum wage by €1 an hour.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is factually incorrect.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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He did that, together with his colleagues. It was a low blow-----

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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That was for new entrants.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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What about the respite care grant?

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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What about household packages?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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After it finished wrecking the banks and the construction industry, we are getting the story of what happened on different nights in dribs and drabs.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister for Finance said that some people are allergic to work. They are allergic to the Labour Party.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The particular contribution of the Department in which the Deputy had the honour to serve was to cut the minimum wage by €1 an hour. The previous Government cut social welfare by €16 or €17 a week.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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The current Government cut it again.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Do not forget the bonuses.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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I know the Tánaiste's heart is not in it.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We maintained the weekly rates and, as a consequence, the social welfare system in Ireland has had the largest reduction in poverty risk of almost any state in the European Union. For the information of the Deputy, our social welfare system is a strong system of support for people when they need it and helps people of working age get back to work. If the Deputy is suggesting that people should be encouraged, including people who can pay like some Deputies in this House who will not pay-----

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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No, he never said that.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste knows full well-----

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The changes in debt reform are long overdue. Taking prison out of civil debt issues is a reform that has been required in the country since the foundation of the State and we will now introduce it. That is why so many organisations have welcomed that change. Fianna Fáil should welcome it. Were it true to the philosophy-----

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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The Government is propping up utility companies.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Government is like Scrooge, or Fagan who was a pickpocket.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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For several months I have asked the Tánaiste to explain how families who have bourne the brunt of the Government's austerity policies can pay the unjust and unfair water tax. I have asked her directly which daily necessities she proposes they forgo to prop up the discredited entity that is Irish Water. She has never once given me a straight answer. We now know the reason for her reticence.

All along she was planning legislation to pickpocket people's wages, pensions and social welfare payments. The proposal is low, sneaky and a cowardly proposition in the face of mass public opposition to her water tax. That such a Thatcherite policy is being introduced by Labour Party Ministers makes it all the more despicable. It illustrates the contempt with which Fine Gael and the Labour Party now view all of those on low incomes, the working poor, the unemployed and the vulnerable. It is an attitude best encapsulated by her colleague, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, who commented on unemployed citizens being, in his mind, allergic to work.

The Government is now seeking to turn private landlords into debt collectors for Irish Water, a position they greatly resent. As a result, landlords have speculated that they may have to triple tenants' deposits. The plan to raid people's wages, pensions and welfare payments will include thresholds to ensure people are not pushed into poverty. Those who cannot pay, and many of those who will not pay, already live in poverty. Is the Tánaiste not aware of that? They are barely able to make ends meet, but she just does not get it.

The Government now proposes to raid wages, welfare or pensions. In a double whammy, it also proposes to make private rented accommodation even more unaffordable for those with low incomes. Perhaps this time the Tánaiste will answer. What advice does she have for those people? What daily necessity does she propose they forgo to pay the water tax?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is my objective, as Minister for Social Protection, as I have told the Deputy, to get as many people as possible back into work and thereby significantly improve their income and that of their households and to improve the life chances of any children they may have. The social welfare system in this country is strong and is built on social solidarity and a social contract.

A lot of people lost their jobs as a result of the disastrous crash in the economy, which was engineered by the previous Government. We want to get as many people of working age as we can back into work. That is not a difficulty because many people are anxious to return to work, education and training. Many young people are delighted to take up apprenticeships. From the manner in which the Deputy talks about people who rely on income from social welfare, one would think that such people had no ambition whatsoever in terms of opportunities for themselves or their children.

I have listened to Sinn Féin's mantra on social welfare and its hostility to work for so long that if it was a song we would all be able to sing it. No wonder west Belfast has the highest incidence of all the problems Deputy Kelleher was talking about as regards poverty and whole range of social difficulties.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Why does the Tánaiste not stand for election there?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Whether Deputy McDonald believes it or not, people find value in life by participating in the community and particularly by being able to get well-paid work and develop a well-paid career.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the Tánaiste to answer my question.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The Tánaiste is a waffler.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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As regards this proposal in respect of civil debt, does Sinn Féin welcome the fact that when this legislation is enacted people will no longer be imprisoned for civil debt matters?

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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They will be imprisoned in poverty.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Deputies on all sides of the House have called for this basic reform over a very long period. Does Sinn Féin welcome it or not? It is a fundamental reform of how debt is dealt with.

The second thing about debt in a modern society is that it affects people at all levels of society. As we know from the crash, it is not just people on a tight budget who find it difficult to manage - lots of people do. The first thing with debt is to have easy methods of paying, so that, as far as possible, nobody ever actually gets to a court and the debt can be dealt with. In the case of water charges and Irish Water, we reformed the system and the charges in such a way that many people who are now receiving their bills are finding they have beaten the cap because they have been very careful with their use of water. That is part of the reason we have put in water metering around the country.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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My question has not been answered.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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This is a Second Stage speech.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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On the matter of debt, I cannot give the Deputy the kind of detail she is looking for because the legislation is being drafted as we speak. The Government made a principled decision yesterday evening to adopt broadly the reforms advocated by the Law Reform Commission in 2010 in respect of civil debt, particularly to distinguish between those who will not pay despite being on comfortable salaries but want everybody else to pay, and those who have difficulties with paying. There will be a very clear support system set out in respect of people who have those kinds of difficulty.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is not me the Tánaiste has to convince of people's anxiety to get back to work. That is a conversation she should have much closer to home, primarily with her colleague, the Minister for Finance. I trust she will have that conversation with him and will ask him to desist from insulting and being condescending towards people who find themselves out of work. That would be at least one constructive thing that the Tánaiste might do. Her comments set aside entirely the reality of the lives of people on small fixed incomes for whom the quarterly payment of €65 is simply beyond their reach. What is absolutely beyond me is that fact that the Tánaiste, as a Labour Party leader, and her colleagues on the Labour Party benches do not recognise that reality. A bill of €65 might seem like a small sum to all of us here, but when someone is stretching week after week and not meeting her bills, when her head is already below the water line, how on earth is she expected to get the €65 together? That is what this boils down to.

The Tánaiste says she took a principled decision on this legislation - my goodness, a principled decision - to put her hand into the pocket of a woman raising a household of small children who does not sleep at night with worry about how she will pay her bills.

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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We never left any mothers on pensions as widows. That was Deputy McDonald's lot.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Tánaiste regard that as a principled position? It is a disgraceful thing to do, and none of her highfalutin' and condescending rhetoric can disguise that. People cannot afford these bills. The Tánaiste says she is acting on a proposal from the Law Reform Commission from a number of years back. That proposal does indeed exist, but the Tánaiste is not fooling anybody. This is all about Irish Water and the public resistance to an unfair imposition on struggling families. People see that this is the Government saying to the working poor - many of those struggling are at work, as I presume the Tánaiste knows - that it does not care about their living circumstances or their day-to-day struggles and that if they do not cough up it is going to stick its hand in their pockets anyway. That is the message people hear.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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A question, please, Deputy. You are over time.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste should answer my original question - not that it is terribly unusual not to get an answer. What does she say to that woman in that struggling household? What does the Tánaiste suggest she set aside to put together the €65? Is the Tánaiste happy to give her even more sleepless nights as she worries about how and when the Tánaiste's hand will be stuck into her pocket or her purse or when it will take bread off the table and from her children? That is the reality of the people I represent, and they want the Tánaiste to hear that message-----

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I am calling on the Tánaiste now.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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They want her to respond, if she would be so good as to give an answer.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Earlier on in her tirade, Deputy McDonald asked me whether I would have a conversation with Deputy Michael Noonan. I ask her if she has ever had a conversation with her party leader about various issues concerning him, or is she a coward? Secondly, in respect of some of the people sitting in this Chamber who have the honour to represent people in this country, our salaries and conditions are pretty good. However, there are a lot of people sitting here who have said they will not pay.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That was not my question.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is the exact point.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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They are not suggesting they cannot pay but that someone on a very handsome salary should get the compliant pensioner to-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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My question relates to a very particular section of society. Could we have the question answered?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste has the floor. We will deal with the question.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We have over 1.2 million people-----

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste has no answers for those families. She is a disgrace.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Really?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Crowe, please. This is Leaders' Questions.

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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Sinn Féin Deputies changed their plan - they were going to pay at first, but they got a fright.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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It does not matter whose questions they are. She is not going to answer them anyway.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I could have a discussion with Deputy Crowe about disgracing one's self any day of the week if he is prepared to talk about things. The issue is somebody who is well off and refuses to pay.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I have not asked about people who are well off.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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What about those on the minimum wage? The Tánaiste cannot answer and will not answer.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Deputy McDonald has clearly had a chance to look at the Law Reform Commission report. The heart of that report is to distinguish between those who can pay but will not, and those who do not have the ability to pay.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I have not asked about people on big salaries.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The report sets out mechanisms and methods whereby people who cannot pay will be helped in dealing with debt issues.

Allow me to say one thing I regret about the water campaign-----

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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That the Tánaiste did a U-turn on imposing it.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Deputy and her colleagues have an absolute right to campaign and march on the street at any stage. However, in the previous history of campaigns by ultra-left groups, the charges that ordinary people were subjected to have mounted up.

When those groups left and went to join another campaign those ordinary people were left to face those charges.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Can I expect an answer to my question?

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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They were your charges.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Please.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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This has happened in campaign after campaign.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The Tánaiste is a great revisionist.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Many people in the House know about helping families who unfortunately ended up with serious debts. What this legislation is attempting to do, and what the Department of Social Protection is doing-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What item should that woman and her family forego to pay your water tax? That was the question.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Please.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We are spending as a country on behalf of all the citizens-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What item should that woman raising her children forego to pay your bill? Please answer my question.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy, please.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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What we are doing for that-----

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste has the floor.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We are spending as a society almost €20 billion in respect of social welfare, and this money-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What item does that woman forego to pay this bill?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----or some of this money will go to the lady the Deputy has spoken about-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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And you will pickpocket her disgracefully.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----and if she is relying on social welfare income she is getting very strong support from the State-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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She is not. She is being put under immense pressure by you. What item does she take off her shopping list?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste to conclude.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----which also wants to help her back to getting employment.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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You are dipping in their pockets again.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste to conclude. We are out of time.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Does the Deputy think-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I think you should answer questions. That is what I think.

Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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Will you be flying first class?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Do you think you are running some kind of a kangaroo court-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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No, I am questioning you.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----and that she can just do a tirade?

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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A kangaroo court.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Ask Deputy Eric Byrne about kangaroo courts. He would know all about them.

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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You would know all about them.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Members, please. The Tánaiste to conclude.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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When she goes for a monologue, as she is doing, it is difficult even to hear what the points in the monologue are. The Department of Social Protection-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The point is very clear.

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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Cut it out.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste is concluding.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The question has been put very clearly and repeatedly and the people I represent, and that many people represent, want to hear an answer to the question.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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We are over time.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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What the Department of Social Protection does-----

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Disrespecting the citizens.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----for the lady and for anybody else in this situation is that we have a whole set of structures in place to support and help people-----

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Can we have a half an hour? We are in injury time now.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----with meeting their household costs and paying debts so they do not get mired in debt. We have a household budgeting system which helps a huge number of people through An Post. Many of the Deputies in the House are very familiar with it.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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You have no answer.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Finian McGrath is sitting in the wrong seat.

Tom Fleming (Kerry South, Independent)
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There is huge disquiet and concern in rural Ireland about the newly constructed Leader scheme to be implemented from now until 2020. The previous Leader scheme was a lifesaver to say the least for rural Ireland, and communities throughout the country benefited from funding for various projects which created jobs, supported and financed several community projects and promoted involvement by the public in projects with a bottom-up approach. The previous Leader scheme had €400 million available for the partnership local development companies. The latest funding allocation for 2014 until 2020 has been cut drastically to €220 million. This is a massive cut of 45% across the board.

This drastic cut for vital services in rural Ireland is a devastating blow for rural groups. It is a further indication of the slash and burn policies which apply to our rural countryside. The decreased allocation will have a significant detrimental impact on the ability of the new realigned partnership groups to deliver community-based projects and support vital community services and facilities. The impact on business development, growth and jobs is looking very bleak. Will the Tánaiste and the Government immediately review the Government's contribution and raise the amount of matching funds from the Exchequer to compliment EU funding, and at least have a fund which is similar to what existed for past Leader groups? It is probably one of our most successful schemes ever for the delivery of services in rural Ireland. Will the Tánaiste go back to the drawing board and finance it properly?

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I thank Deputy Fleming. As he is probably aware, the European Union in its budgetary programme for the next number of years has reduced the amount which countries such as Ireland receive under this heading. This is alongside the various changes happening in farming and the Common Agricultural Policy. I absolutely accept what Deputy Fleming said, that Leader has been an enormously important force in rural Ireland. Even in rural north County Dublin, part of which I represent, it has been a huge force for positive economic and social good. One of the consequences of the change, which will be very positive for rural Ireland, is the new programme being rolled out will be heavily concentrated not simply on what has been done in the past but on creating rural employment and rural enterprise. This will continue.

The one area which I understand has been reviewed is that in some Leader programmes, and I stress some Leader programmes, the level of administration costs was very high. In some cases it was more than one quarter of the total cost. As we look forward to the forthcoming budget the Government will look at how to support these rural initiatives and rural enterprise. We have already given a significant indicative allocation to, for instance, the development of an IDA presence throughout the country in regional enterprise development programmes. As these programmes develop, with the IDA and Enterprise Ireland, I am hopeful and confident they will link in with the existing Leader network. I and the Minister of State, Deputy Humphreys, have had the privilege of visiting many of these schemes in various parts of rural Ireland, and what we are doing, which is complimentary and parallel, is to expand community employment. In recent years we have created the Tús scheme, which is very popular particularly in rural Ireland with regard to initiatives on the environment, tourism and beautifying our villages and towns.

There has been a reduction in the EU allocation for Ireland under this heading, but the Government has recently committed to a regional development and industrial programme. We now have IDA officials based in the regions for the first time in a long time, to look for new businesses, new initiatives and foreign direct investment to come to the regions. I hope that as we go forward ConnectIreland will work closely with Leader and with the new arrangements for the Leader companies.

Tom Fleming (Kerry South, Independent)
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I welcome the Tánaiste's statement that the Government will look into additional moneys, in particular with a view to the forthcoming budget. This certainly will be very much a corrective action by the Government to address this matter whereby there is a total reduction of approximately €180 million from the funding available from 2009 to 2014.

The Leader model adopted by Europe is the most efficient and the best value for money Leader programmes have been conducted in this country, which has been recognised. The European Commission is concerned at the methodology used in the tendering process. Protective notice is being given to staff of current Leader groups, which have been delivering productively. Staff have been mentoring and advising in the community and they have delivered top-class administration and wonderful management. This is throwing out the baby with the bath water. If we dispose of these, we cannot allow it to happen through neglect or careless action by the Government. I am very impressed by, and I welcome, the Tánaiste's reference to the involvement of IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland and job creation companies. Leader is an appropriate word because these bodies have been the leaders in delivering jobs in rural Ireland. Since 2009, some 8,698 rural enterprises were funded by the Leader programme, supporting the creation of 4,084 rural jobs in the worst economic recession in the country. From today, I hope we work positively with Leader groups for future development, for the good of our countryside and to keep people in jobs.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I look forward to seeing a closer working relationship between Leader, Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland. I was in Kerry recently and, if IDA Ireland were to invest in the Kerry Technology Park beside the institute of technology and facilities for entrepreneurs in IT, from listening to the Tralee chamber of commerce it sees great potential for employment in the south west and specifically in Kerry. Deputy Tom Fleming saw the Enterprise Ireland statistics last week, where new enterprises and smaller enterprises growing into larger enterprises are now exporting significantly. If, as a country, we can harness the energy of the Leader groups and the significant community contribution and participation in the Leader groups and bring it together with IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland, we can create new enterprises and employment in rural areas. ConnectIreland has been working very successfully since it started a few years ago and almost all of its jobs have been in rural Ireland. This is not just into the bigger towns and cities.

The tendering system for the Leader groups was conducted under the auspices of Pobal and it was challenging for people to be involved in it. The main issue is that the European Union has significantly reduced the funding heading. The Government is committed to matching funding but the amount we can commit depends on budgetary issues. It is a priority of the Government to ensure the recovery, as it begins to take hold, goes right into rural Ireland as much as in urban Ireland. In that respect, I welcome the comments of Deputy Tom Fleming and I will give them my support.