Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is proposed to take No. 35, Legal Services Regulation Bill 2011 - Report Stage (resumed) and Final Stage.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that in the event a division is in progress at the time fixed for taking Private Members’ business, the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. tonight and shall adjourn on the adjournment of Private Members’ business, which shall be No. 185 – motion re self-employed and SME sectors, and shall, if not previously concluded, adjourn after 90 minutes.

Tomorrow’s business after Oral Questions shall be No. 35, Legal Services Regulation Bill 2011 - Report Stage (resumed) and Final Stage.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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There is one proposal to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with the late sitting agreed? Agreed.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to ask the Taoiseach about legislation relating to health. Page 4 of the programme for Government states: "A system of universal health insurance will be introduced by 2016, with the legislative and organisational groundwork for the system complete within this Government's term of office." It is now April 2015. Can the Taoiseach confirm that legislative promise will not now be achieved and that the commitments will not be realised within the Government's term of office? Can he further confirm that universal health insurance, with a public or private insurer, will be compulsory with insurance payments related to ability to pay? Will that happen between now and the general election?

When can we expect the universal primary care Bill? Does the Taoiseach envisage it coming into being within the next 12 months? When can we expect the integrated care agency to be established? I have been pursuing this for quite some time and getting very little in the form of confirmation. It is more than four years since the programme for Government was published. It stated that investment in the supply of more and better care for older people in the community and residential sectors will be a priority of the Government. What has actually happened in the past three to four years are reductions. There have been reductions in fair deal allocations and in the number of home helps, many of whom only get half an hour or 40 minutes with the people they are looking after. We were told we would get more home care packages but we are getting fewer. We were told there would be a review of the fair deal scheme and we have asked time and again on the Order of Business for the publication of that review, or a timeline for its publication, only to be stalled every time. I would appreciate it if the Taoiseach would indicate definitively when we can expect the review.

On primary care, there remains a fundamental issue in terms of the extension of the medical card and access to primary care without fees for those who are chronically ill or have long-term illnesses. The programme for Government stated that access to primary care without fees would be extended in the first year to claimants of free drugs under the long-term illness scheme. It also stated that access to primary care without fees would be extended in the second year to claimants of free drugs under the high-tech drugs scheme and that access to subsidised care would be extended to all in the next phase, while access to care without fees would be extended to all in the final phase.

About four or five pages in the programme for Government are devoted to health. I have asked the Taoiseach on numerous occasions when we can expect all the proposals contained in this document to be realised. I have received long letters in response and the over-riding conclusion is that very little of it will be implemented before this Government's term ends. Would the Taoiseach accept that this is a sham, that the section pertaining to health in the programme for Government is completely illusory and that if someone came down from Mars, read it and compared it to the reality over the past five years, they would be left scratching their head? I have not even gone into bioethics. It is said that assisted human reproduction, stem cell research, post-mortem procedures, organ retention and organ donation and an opt-out system will be legislated for but none of this will happen. The patient safety authority is not happening. There is an obligation to at least commit to ditching these five or six pages because they are completely illusory and are misleading the public in terms of the rhetoric and the reality. Could the Taoiseach answer in terms of the specifics of the legislation about which I asked?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Universal health insurance will not be introduced in the lifetime of this Government. On taking office, the Minister for Health reflected very carefully on the timeframes set out for health reform. He pointed out last July that he determined that while good progress had been made in implementing health reform, the original timeframe for full implementation of universal health insurance was too ambitious. He pointed out that notwithstanding this, the Government remains committed to its major programme of health reform and plans to continue to press ahead with those main foundations for universal health care. This include the phased extension of GP care without fees; implementing a number of key financial reforms, including activity-based funding; the establishment of hospital groups; and improved chronic care management. Hospital groups, primary care centres and the GP card system for children aged under six and people aged over 70 are part of the foundation necessary for universal health insurance in addition to the requirement for people to take out private health insurance based on age limits. This is all under way. The Government recently allocated €75 million for home care packages and the fair deal scheme in order to reduce the waiting list from 18 weeks to approximately five weeks. This seems to be working well. Obviously, we hope this is managed in the best interests of the patients.

The integrated care agency is part of the Government's commitment to reform of the health service. Future Health referred to the agency as the health care commissioning agency and this agency will be charged with driving performance improvement in health services through value-based purchasing. The Minister is reviewing how best to develop the structure that is required to replace the HSE - I know Deputy Martin's party now has a different view - including the question of a health care commissioning agency. Future Health set the broad direction of travel for reforming the health system and made it clear that an incremental, phased approach to implementation was taking place. This is just one of number of structural changes envisaged under Future Health. Others include hospital groups, community health care organisations, a health care pricing office and the commencement of activity-based funding. The Minister intends to build on these as part of the wider structural reform agenda. However, the complexity and scale of the issues to be addressed require detailed preparatory policy work to provide the basis for legislative proposals. The next incremental step in that process will be to develop policy on a health care commissioning model in an Irish context.

In respect of the review of home care, the HSE is progressing a range of measures to improve the position overall. Providers are monitored through service-level agreements with the HSE. They are supervised through local and regular operational meetings and the review of care plans for individual patients. The HSE is undertaking a full review of home care services with a view to improving services generally. This includes national quality guidelines, which will apply to all home support services, including those procured by the HSE from external providers.

If I have left anything out, I will respond to Deputy Martin.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Could the Taoiseach tell the Dáil when the Government will move the writ for the Carlow-Kilkenny by-election? There is a vacancy there. The previous Government was forced by Deputy Pearse Doherty's High Court action to call by-elections within six months so I would like to know when the people of that constituency will have the opportunity to elect a Deputy to represent them.

My other questions concern the working group on Seanad reform, the Education (Admission to Schools) Bill 2015 and the health (transport support) Bill. Mar is eol don Leas-Cheann Comhairle, an tseachtain seo caite d'fhoilsigh an grúpa oibre maidir le athchóiriú an tSeanaid a thuarascáil. This report falls far short of what Sinn Féin and others believe is needed to make the Seanad a genuinely democratic and representative elected Chamber mostly because of the restricted terms of reference it was given. The fact that the Taoiseach retains the privilege of appointing 11 nominees is wrong. Other issues include the failure to deal with university representation, gender equality or the representation of ethnic groups, particularly the Traveller community. The numbers to be elected by universal suffrage are too small. Having said all that, when will the Dáil have the opportunity to debate this report and when does the Taoiseach expect the Government to produce legislation?

Tá ceist eile agam faoi Acht atá an-tábhachtach, namely, the Education (Admission to Schools) Bill 2015. We are told that this Bill is about making school enrolment more structured, fair and transparent. It also provides that a school will not discriminate on the basis of religion but if I understand it properly, it then goes on to provide for discrimination by allowing schools to refuse to admit certain children in order to maintain the ethos of the school so this means a school can still discriminate based on religion or faith. The Minister for Education and Skills has also said that she favours allowing schools to admit 10% of pupils if their parents are past pupils. Clearly, this also discriminates against children who do not have that distinction. What is the Taoiseach's view of this and has the Government set a date for the Second Stage reading of this Bill?

I have raised the next issue many times with the Taoiseach. I have noticed over the past few months that the Government is almost ticking boxes with regard to issues that have been raised here. These are very important issues that do not cost an awful lot of money. It is almost as if the Government is trying to close down these issues of discontent as it prepares for the general election. The health (transport support) Bill is a major injustice. In 2013, the Government closed the mobility allowance scheme and the motorised transport grant, affecting 5,000 citizens and their families.

I have raised this with the Taoiseach on a number of occasions and he has acknowledged that what is happening is wrong. The excuse given by the Minister at the time was that the Government could not afford to keep the scheme open. It is interesting that this was brought to the attention of the Dáil because it was ruled to be in breach of equality laws. We were told that the issue would be resolved by the health (transport support) Bill. Two years later, there has been no progress. Two years later, these people are still being denied this necessary grant. According to the legislative programme, it is not possible to indicate when this Bill will be published. Perhaps the Taoiseach will clarify for the House when the health (transport support) Bill will be published. Address of this issue would not cost the Government or taxpayer a great deal of money but would alleviate great difficulties for these citizens and their families.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have answered this question previously for the Deputy. I cannot give him a specific date in regard to publication of that Bill. It is included in the legislative programme for this year, under legislation relating to the Department of Health. Work in respect of the drafting of the proposals for primary legislation is well advanced but it has not yet come to Government.

The Education (Admission to Schools) Bill was published on 8 April. No date for the taking of that legislation in the House has yet been agreed. It is a matter for the Whips to agree on a time for debate of that Bill in the Dáil. I noted the comments of the Minister at the recent teachers' meetings on this matter.

The by-election for Carlow-Kilkenny will take place on 22 May, the writ for which will be moved by the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government in good time to allow for an enthusiastic, vibrant and energetic campaign in that regard. That will happen in the near future.

In regard to the Seanad working group, this group was tasked by me to work under the chairmanship of former Seanad Leader, Maurice Manning. The group comprises members nominated by party leaders to represent their parties. The people made their decision in respect of the retention of the Seanad. The terms of reference of the group include an examination of the electoral system and the work programme that might be possible for the Seanad, but within constitutional parameters so as not to require a further referendum. The people decided, albeit by a narrow majority, to retain the Seanad. The question of the number of Members to be appointed to the Seanad by the Taoiseach of the day is enshrined in the Constitution. As such, no change in that regard can be made without a referendum. The group was asked to work within the constitutional parameters. The report presented by the group to me, and to everybody else, is radical, innovative and exciting in the sense of what could be achieved in respect of Seanad Éireann. I hope to meet with the party leaders on the matter. The group is due to appear before an Oireachtas committee shortly to give a presentation on its work and propositions. I understand it will also make a presentation on its report to the Seanad in the next fortnight or in the very near future. The potential work programme outlined by the group is also very interesting.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Will it make the manifesto?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It provides for address by Senators of European directives, secondary legislation, North-South ministerial issues, British-Irish issues and a range of other matters, without interference in the sensitive issue of their view of the electoral system. These are radical proposals. In due course, this House and the Upper House will have an opportunity to discuss that report.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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As there are six Deputies wishing to ask questions, I appeal for brevity.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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No. 52 on the legislative programme is the criminal justice (miscellaneous provisions) Bill, and No. 114 is the criminal justice (freezing and confiscation) Bill. Will either of these pieces of legislation address the astounding occurrence in Kildare in the past week whereby a private security firm, on foot of a High Court order, arrived at a farm at midnight to give effect to the repossession of that farm? This encounter lasted from midnight to 5 a.m. and involved 30 uniformed personnel, some of them with dogs, many of them wearing balaclavas and all of them apparently acting on behalf of the receiver. One respects totally the decisions of the court, but it is more reminiscent of Mugabe's Zimbabwe-----

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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-----than Kenny's Ireland that this approach is being adopted in terms of the enforcement of a court order.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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It is happening every day of the week.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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Will either of these pieces of legislation or any legislation that the Government proposes to bring forward address the appalling situation witnessed in Kildare in the past week?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The two pieces of legislation differ greatly from what the Deputy describes. Obviously, the courts are independent. I am not sure if the Deputy, in referring to "uniformed personnel"-----

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Balaclavas.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In another case raised here, gardaí were present but strictly on the basis of ensuring that peace was maintained.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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A private security firm was involved.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Court orders are enforceable. If the Deputy wishes, he could raise the matter with the Minister for Justice and Equality by way of a Topical Issue. I am sure he would get a more detailed response than I can give him without having the details of the particular case.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Independent)
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In regard to the Residential Tenancies (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 2012 and the Government's promise to introduce a deposit protection scheme, which has a great deal to recommend it in terms of assisting in disputes between tenants and landlords and would save the State a substantial amount of money in rent supplement, in July 2013 the then Minister with responsibility for housing said that she would bring forward substantial amendments on Committee Stage in the Seanad to address the issue of deposit protection. Some 20 months later, there is still no sign of this happening. What is the reason for the delay in progressing this Bill, and will the Taoiseach give a commitment to prioritise the promise by the Government to introduce a deposit protection scheme?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As I understand it, the Residential Tenancies (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 2012 is at Committee Stage in the Seanad.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Independent)
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For the past 20 months.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will find out from the Seanad Office what is happening in that regard. The Bill was dealt with in this House and was then sent to the Seanad. I do not know the reason for the delay in the Seanad but I will find out and communicate on the matter with the Deputy, at which time I will also update her on the deposit protection scheme.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Independent)
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I thank the Taoiseach.

Tony McLoughlin (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach will be aware that many professional criminal organisations throughout the country, including in my home town of Sligo, are still benefitting from the proceeds of crime. When will the proceeds of crime (amendment) Bill be brought before this House for debate?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I cannot give a date for that debate. Discussions have been under way for some time now with the Criminal Assets Bureau on amendments to this particular Bill. I will seek an update on the matter for Deputy McLoughlin.

James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The country needs an effective housing strategy to cope with the ever-increasing number of people who need a home of their own. Homelessness is not only an urban issue but also a rural issue. Many young people who moved back in with their parents during the recession now wish to move to homes of their own. The local authorities and agencies such as Respond and Clúid are doing a very good job in providing housing.

When can we expect to see the housing (regulation of approved housing bodies) Bill come before the House?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That will be later this year.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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There have been a lot of announcements and promises of the spring statement. The Taoiseach might advise us as to whether the spring statement will be announced here in the Dáil and on what date will that be. Will there be statements from the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform? Will it follow normal budget day announcements where a response from the Opposition will be facilitated? Will the Taoiseach give us some indication so that Members have an opportunity to prepare? If there are to be responses from the Opposition, will he ensure on this occasion that the two Ministers involved have the courtesy to remain in the Dáil to hear some of the statements? In the past two budgets, they upped and left the Chamber to head off to God knows where and did not even listen to the response to their budget day speeches. I ask the Taoiseach to ensure, if that is to happen next week, the Ministers remain in the Chamber at least to hear what is being said.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Time was when other Ministers used to make all such announcements outside the House in glorious surroundings. The spring statement will be announced in the Dáil on Tuesday and Wednesday of next week. Tuesday will be for the Minister for Finance, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform and the various Opposition spokespersons. The intention is that the Ministers will hear directly the contributions of the Opposition spokespersons. On Wednesday, both myself and the Tánaiste will speak on this matter. That will continue all day Wednesday here in the House - nowhere else.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Regarding the criminal justice (miscellaneous provisions) Bill, I refer to what Deputy Ó Fearghaíl said. I am very concerned. There is a third force acting in the country. I got a telephone call that night at 3 a.m. when that situation arose and there were members of the Garda, including a superintendent, present. I am worried that gardaí are being forced into these situations. They have told me that they have to go but the Garda superintendent failed to produce a warrant to the housewife that night. This was a terrorist act, as far as I am concerned, observed by gardaí. I have two affidavits in my office, which I will hand to the Taoiseach, about surveillance by gardaí for two weeks prior to this.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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To which legislation is the Deputy referring?

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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This is going on in this country with the tacit approval of the Government. I contacted the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Fitzgerald, the morning after. She is aware of it. This is not acceptable in any democracy. Deputy Ó Fearghaíl said it is like Zimbabwe. It is definitely like it, or Libya. It is outrageous that hooded men, accompanied by unmuzzled dogs, are trespassing across lands, including those of other landowners.

The second piece of legislation I want to ask the Taoiseach about also involves the Garda. A former eminent Supreme Court judge last week used a member of the Garda to promote an issue in the forthcoming referendum. It is despicable. Gardaí have to be, and have been, impartial in all cases and we all support them 100%, but they cannot be used and abused by receivers and, in this case, by persons supporting nothing other than a "Yes" vote in the campaign. The former judge knew well what she was doing - maybe the innocent gardaí did not know what they were doing - and the response from the Minister and the Garda Representative Association has been pathetic. It is a misuse of the Garda Síochána which should be allowed to be impartial and above reproach.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I object to Deputy Mattie McGrath's assertion that gardaí were involved in any way in terrorist activities.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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They were observing it.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Gardaí have a constitutional duty to see that the peace is observed and that was the sole function or remit of the gardaí in the case the Deputy mentioned.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Mattie McGrath has a problem with the gardaí who were there.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The photo call outside Pearse Street Garda station was to highlight that people should register to vote. The Garda is an apolitical organisation. The authorities continue to examine the circumstances behind the photo call outside Pearse Street Garda station and other suggestions of inappropriate Garda activity in relation to the forthcoming referendum. Everybody here understands that, whatever the motivation, for the Garda to allow the perception to develop that it was in any way involved in the forthcoming referendum is not true. They have an important job to do. The Garda Commissioner has made it clear publicly that Garda participation in the event-----

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Not very clearly.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----outside Pearse Street station or any event like it is inappropriate. The Garda Commissioner has been very clear on this.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Durkan.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I want the Taoiseach to correct the record. I did not suggest the gardaí were involved in terrorist activities.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Mattie McGrath did so.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I did not. Excuse me.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Please.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I did not say that. I would not say that.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Mattie McGrath implied that they condoned it.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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If Deputy Mattie McGrath has any information, he should bring it to the Minister or to the Garda Commissioner.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Can the Taoiseach correct the record that I would impugn gardaí by saying that? I stated there was a third force out there and they were acting like terrorists. Maybe the Taoiseach would be so kind as to acknowledge that.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Mattie McGrath should check the record. It is down there.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Taoiseach should be kind and conscious of that. He will be aware that I support the Garda.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Of course, I do not want to attribute too many wrong motives to Deputy Mattie McGrath, but I thought I heard him state that the gardaí were standing there while this was a terrorist activity, which might imply that he was suggesting that they were condoning it.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Exactly.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Nothing could be further from the truth.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Durkan.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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No. The gardaí were there but they were not giving a run for their money.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Mattie McGrath should withdraw it.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Durkan.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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If I deal with Deputy Kehoe, it would not be down. His next door neighbour needed him and he went to bed.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Mattie McGrath has his own problems.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputies should settle down.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Deputy Kehoe might insult Members here. That is what he does.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Mattie McGrath has his own problems.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The building control Bill is important legislation which has been promised for some time. Is it likely to come before the House for Second Stage before the summer recess? Given the urgency of encouraging more apprenticeships, when will the apprenticeship Bill appear before the House also?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The building control Bill will be published in the second half of the year. On the apprenticeship Bill, the Minister of State at the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Damien English, received all of the submissions at the end of March and these are being gone through. He will report on progress to the House.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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On a point of clarification, the matters raised by Deputies Ó Fearghaíl and Mattie McGrath are in the context of gardaí protecting the other citizens who were not involved on that night and the deep concern that has been expressed by them that they would be exposed to such thuggery and activity. In the legislation quoted by the Deputies, perhaps the Government might consider that these matters, in terms of acting on court orders, should be conducted during normal business hours during the day, not under the cover of darkness.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Yes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Nobody wants to see that happening. That was the issued that was raised by the community and by the Oireachtas Members who were present at that public meeting.

On a second issue, on the discussion that the Government seems to be having about promised legislation in the area of bankruptcy and in the context of the spring statement, is it the Taoiseach's intention to bring forward legislation to reduce the period of bankruptcy from three years to one year? Will the legislation amend some other matters in relation to bankruptcy and insolvency for individuals to give them a reasonable time span of one year and enable them to get back actively in the economy again?

I raised the National Standards Authority of Ireland Act 1996 on the Order of Business previously. Commercial vehicle body builders are encountering serious difficulty getting clearances through the National Standards Authority of Ireland and I ask the Taoiseach to intervene again. Something must be done in relation to staffing levels in the authority and the clearing of certificates that are necessary to sell on the vehicles. It is causing difficulty for that sector.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will advise Deputy McGuinness on that as best I can.

Court orders, when the court has made its decision, are enforceable. I agree that these things should be done at an appropriate time, not in the middle of the night.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I thank the Taoiseach.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The question of bankruptcy is one-----

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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There is a Topical Issue next from Deputy Martin Heydon.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is the bankruptcy matter a Topical Issue?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The repossession matter.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The repossession issue, I understand, is a Topical Issue later on.

The Government has already stated that it intends to bring forward a number of measures dealing with mortgage distress and repossession of houses in order to ensure that, where possible, borrowers retain their houses, whether that be through the mortgage-to-rent scheme being changed or whether there is an issue in respect of an independent assessment of structured propositions being put forward. That is separate from the question of bankruptcy being reduced from three years to one.

Deputy McGuinness will be aware that when the former Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, brought the Bill through the House to reduce it from 12 years to three, there was no great division on whether it should be three or one.

However, I would caution that Deputy Penrose's Bill was presented to the House and was not objected to, and I was in the House. The information available to me is that where bankruptcy applies, 70% of cases end up with repossessions of the house, which is not what the Government is about or what anyone wants to see.

In addition to that, I believe the Oireachtas committee should certainly look at this question. We should take into account all the small and medium-sized enterprises and the credit unions which are owed money. They would lose and the taxpayer would have to pay for all of that. It is not as simple as it seems to say that a reduction from three years to one year is a panacea for all these issues. The evidence is that in bankruptcies, repossessions occur in 70% of cases. How many people running small businesses in Kilkenny, Cork or Clare or how many credit unions throughout the country which are owed money would lose out completely if we had a system whereby a debtor could decide that he or she is getting out and declaring bankruptcy? Those people would lose out. It might be an issue for the committee to have some hearings on this and to get first-hand evidence of what might happen. I am sure people do not want to get into a situation where unintended consequences mean that more and more people could be caught by having this apply. I see certain people applying pressure now that this Bill be introduced automatically. A well-known and well-publicised case is currently being considered. I understand many millions are owed in that case. If bankruptcy applies, then clearly there are serious losses on that scale. It is not an answer to everyone's problem. Perhaps the Oireachtas committee could do a very useful exercise here in looking at those issues, for example, in respect of small and medium-sized enterprises, credit unions and smaller contractors which are owed money but which will not get it if there is a simplicity factor whereby a debtor can decide to become bankrupt and say "Tally-ho".

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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Bankruptcy is bankruptcy, just as when a person is dead, he is dead.