Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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I am grateful to the Ceann Comhairle for the opportunity to raise this issue and I thank the Minister of State for being present.

The VEC halls on Clogher Road in Crumlin and in Inchicore are among the education and sports facilities that were introduced when some of us were members of Dublin City Council, DCC. A condition of their introduction was that they had to open their doors in the evening for community use, particularly for football and dancing clubs, martial arts, arts and crafts and active retirement groups. This meant that people in the community who could not avail of the facilities during the daytime found that these centres could be part and parcel of what they did in the evening, and they have become a great asset to community groups. People can stay local and get involved in activities locally without having to journey elsewhere to participate.

Over the past few weeks, Pobal has withdrawn funding from these centres, which means they will only be able to open between 9.30 a.m. and 4 p.m. to facilitate the students in the colleges in Inchicore and Crumlin. While that is welcome, a commitment was given when these sports halls were opened that people in the community would have access to them in the evenings, and this change is hugely disappointing. I requested confirmation of the commitment to community access from the Minister of State in writing and I received a letter from him yesterday. I understand that the Department felt the proposal made by the groups running the centres was not adequate and did not contain sufficient detail. All is not lost; there is a window of opportunity. The Minister of State stated in his letter:

I want to assure you that the Department is committed to securing the community use of these facilities and will continue to work with the CDETB to enable this outcome. The contract with the CDETB was extended to the end of June [I welcome that], which will enable work to continue with the ETB to address matters concerning the Department, with the aim of allowing longer terms of operation of the contract and to ensure viability for the services to continue in the community.

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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I thank the Minister of State for attending. I appreciate that as soon as I called him on receipt of the letter from the City of Dublin Education and Training Board, CDETB, he acted promptly. It is the least I can expect from a Labour Party Minister. I do not know what exactly are the issues between Pobal, DCC and CDETB, but I have a copy of a reassuring letter which was sent to both sports centres. Will the Minister of State give a guarantee, notwithstanding the fact that there are three months for negotiations among the three bodies, that the community services available on Clogher Road and in Inchicore will be retained with the same opening times and availability for the community as heretofore?

The first I heard about this was when I attended a drugs task force meeting in St. Andrews Hall last week and somebody said Pobal had pulled the funding for the centres. I replied that Pobal is only an agent for European funding or governmental funding. Where does the funding come from? Is this money from the European Social Fund, which finds its way into the system where Pobal intervenes? What is the difficulty being experienced? Public meetings have been demanded. I have received text messages from roller skaters who are worried that they will be unable to roller skate any more, while other community groups are being called to meetings by councillors from DCC. I would like the Minister of State to verbally back up the commitment I have received in writing that this is not a funding cutback and that the funds are available, but there is a complication between the three bodies. He might put our collective minds at rest in order that we can tell people not to bother going to public meetings to shout and roar, because they will be shouting and roaring about the wrong issue.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, United Left)
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I too heard about this issue late last Thursday evening. Many people panicked, as could be expected, and I tabled the Topical Issue matter early yesterday evening. I thank the Minister of State for the letter he sent and for responding quickly. When I asked a subsequent question, he responded to me quickly again. I rang the CDETB earlier when I realised this matter would be taken in the House to clarify its position. Mr. David Treacy said that everything was okay, and he is confident. He said that their application might have been too soft, whereas Pobal was expecting a more comprehensive response regarding where the community resources go. However, he is confident that the money is available and everything will be okay, and I hope the Minister of State will confirm this.

This is a complicated way of funding these facilities. It is provided by Pobal but the application has to go to CDETB and then to DCC before being returned to Pobal. My understanding is that there is potential to have the grant paid directly to DCC rather than going through this complicated process. While the buildings belong to the CDETB, the staff are employed by DCC. I hope we will get good news.

Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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If the Deputies will forgive me, I will depart from the script that has been circulated. This matter involves substantial funding. A sum of €600,000 will be paid over three years. In many ways, Pobal is a gatekeeper, and we have to make sure this money is spent correctly. The provision of such funding over a three-year contract is a fantastic asset to local communities. This is the first time this contract has come up for renewal, while approximately 140 contracts come up for renewal on a regular basis. Pobal, therefore, acts as the gatekeeper to make sure the criteria attaching to the funding are met. There will be no reduction in funding. The money is available and we want to spend it, but we want to make sure that happens in the best interest of the communities and, therefore, the criteria must be met. For example, there must be transparency in how the money is spent and in respect of community access to the facilities, which are jointly managed by DCC and the ETB.

The four of us were members of Dublin City Council and I worked with Deputies Eric Byrne and Catherine Byrne on the provision of both these centres, because I was chairman of the VEC when these developments were proposed. They are fantastic facilities. I am concerned by Deputy Eric Byrne's comment that councillors are calling for public meetings on issues for which they are responsible. While the contract is with the ETB, DCC is also involved.

Councillors have representation on the education and training boards. When I was a councillor, I took full responsibility for the electoral mandate I had and dealt with the problems raised regarding this issue. I am quite satisfied that we can resolve it, but there must be engagement, and there must be a contract. All four of us will agree that we must ensure that the money involved, which is over €600,000, is spent in the interests of the two communities. I am happy to work with the Deputies if there are further issues of concern, but we must ensure when we are spending taxpayers' money that it is spent in the right areas, with the right intentions for the outcome of those communities. I will work with members of all parties and none to ensure that happens. I thank the Deputies for raising the matter. There are issues that need to be raised with the local public representatives regarding their own governance of it. The Deputies will have dealt with those issues at council level before, but the contract is with the CDETB and with Dublin City Council, which operates it. I want to see those two centres and those two communities thrive, and I will do everything I can to assist.

Joe O'Reilly (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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The next topical issue is in the name of-----

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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I have a couple of seconds left.

Joe O'Reilly (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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Sorry. I call Deputy Byrne.

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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I thank the Minister of State for his response. He might, if he has access to the information, write an outline of his response to the sporting, cultural and adult groups that are using the services to reassure them, despite the scare tactics that have been used on the ground, that there is no need for them to attend public meetings.

These are three-year contracts. I was surprised that so many bodies were involved in the funding stream. I used to think the VEC had it in the morning, during class hours, and then Dublin City Council took over afterwards. The funding stream seems to be more complicated now, with three or four agencies involved. My first question is whether the Minister thinks we could streamline that funding. The more fingers in the pie, the more complicated it gets. Second, could we not make it a permanent relationship, so that the building is permanently available to the community?

Joe O'Reilly (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy. The Minister of State will have noted that. We have to move to the next topical issue.

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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I thought there was-----

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, United Left)
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We are entitled to-----

Joe O'Reilly (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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My apologies, the Deputy has one minute.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, United Left)
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I am delighted with the reply and we can confidently say that they will be open, because there may just have been a lack of understanding about how to meet the criteria Pobal was looking for. If all sides sit down, that will be easily sorted.

I also want to raise the question of funding. Is there a possibility that the funding could be better streamlined, that is, that the grant could go directly to Dublin City Council? The CDETB owns the buildings of Inchicore sports centre and Clogher Road. About ten years ago, they agreed to a procedure whereby Pobal would pay the CDETB as a middle man and then the money would go to the DCC staff and so on. Would it not be better to sit down and use this opportunity to see how the process can be streamlined so that we know exactly where the money is going and if there is a more direct way of dealing with it?

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State for his clear response. I also thank him because I know he understands what this community needs and what these halls mean to the community. I must also stress that the reaction has been felt strongly on the ground locally. In some ways it has also been fuelled by many negative things, which were not related to this. There are concerns and it is important to let us know as soon as these are resolved, because there can be a negative reaction when people hear for the first time that money is being withdrawn. As the Minister of State said, this has nothing to do with money. This has to do with an application, which was declined for some reason, whether it was put together wrong or did not give the proper information. I agree with him that we have to be very careful giving out substantial amounts of money regarding who it goes to, how it is used and, above all, how the community benefits from it.

Joe O'Reilly (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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My sincere apologies to my colleagues for that error.

Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Deputy Catherine Byrne is correct. It is €650,000.

I am a little cautious about streamlining. It is the flexibility of the community service programme that makes it work well. There is flexibility in the services where numbers of groups come together but there is one overall manager. In this case, the CDETB has taken on the administration of it. The way this is managed varies across the country. Sometimes when one streamlines something, one loses the benefit. There is often one community group that manages it for five or six other groups, like the hub of a wheel. There is a flexibility within the service. The Department and the taxpayer pay for this; Pobal does not give the money. As I explained earlier, Pobal is the gatekeeper. It ensures that the criteria are met, and that the taxpayers' money is safeguarded and spent in the right manner.

There must be engagement from the CDETB. The letter that went out, which I saw myself, scared people on the ground. This is very much a process. There has been an extension to June, but the contract must be fulfilled. The contract is quite specific and it is safeguarding that service for local communities. The Department of Social Protection is paying out €650,000 on behalf of the citizen and the taxpayer over three years. We want to make sure that money is spent in the best interests of those communities. I will contact the CDETB and urge it to get the application in on time and to move things on. We are not trying to save any money here. We are quite happy that a good service can be supplied to the residents the Deputies represent and I will work with all the Deputies to try to ensure that service is maintained. However, the required level of openness and transparency must be met when these large sums of public money are being spent. I thank the Deputies for raising the issue and look forward to working with them on it.