Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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116. To ask the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport if he will consider making it a precondition of any sale of the Government's stake in Aer Lingus that the longer service Irish Airlines (General Employees) Superannuation Scheme deferred pensioners be compensated in proportion to the compensation given to the current employees of the Dublin Airport Authority and Aer Lingus; and if he will further consider making available the required sums to compensate the deferred pensioners out of the proceeds of the sale of the Government's stake in the airline or, failing that, out of general Exchequer funds. [10012/15]

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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The Minister will be well aware that it is now the eleventh hour for long serving deferred pensioners of the IASS. He has, I suggest, a unique opportunity at this stage to pull the fat out of the fire. Will he pledge that, in the event of a sale of Aer Lingus, he will ring-fence sufficient money - there will be plenty of money over in respect of which the Government has not yet made any decisions in terms of allocation - to compensate the deferred pensioners in equal compensatory proportion to the actives?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for his question. As I have previously said on a number of occasions, the IASS and its funding is a matter for the trustees, the companies participating in the scheme, the scheme member and the Pensions Authority.

The Deputy will be aware that the trustee proposal which was approved by the Pensions Authority and implemented on 31 December 2014 includes a contribution by Aer Lingus and DAA totalling more than €260 million, which includes €60 million for deferred members. The IASS trustee has confirmed that the measures being implemented are in the overall best interest of the members of the IASS as a whole and are fully compliant with national and EU law. Not to have taken the course of action that I did would have meant going against the explicit recommendations of those charged with managing the fund. It would have taken the largest pension fund in the country into uncharted territory, with many risks, including the risk that the scheme would be wound up.

With regard to the proposed sale of the State's shareholding in Aer Lingus, I have consistently set out the Government’s position on the issues that it would take account of in considering any offer for its shareholding in Aer Lingus. In addition to price, the other issues that will be examined include connectivity to and from Ireland, including direct transatlantic services and connectivity via Heathrow, competition in the air transport market, jobs in Irish aviation and the Aer Lingus brand.

The specific issue raised by the Deputy in the event of a sale is a matter for the Department of Finance and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. However, the Deputy's suggestion raises two issues: first, how such an investment could be made without prompting further demands on a deal that has taken many years to negotiate; and second, the consequences of a direct investment by the taxpayer in a private pension fund when many other pension funds are in serious difficulties.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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The Minister is correct. The question is specifically directed towards the placing of further demands on a deal that has taken many years to negotiate. That is exactly what I am trying to do, because this deal is a dastardly deal that discriminates against people who are now in a hopeless situation. I get no comfort from the Minister's reply. It seems to me that these people have been abandoned by the Government in an absolutely shameless way because they have nothing to fight with. The Minister said the trustee was acting in the overall interests of all the stakeholders. What the trustee, and the Government in its Pontius Pilate-like attitude, are doing is creating an oppressed minority. Here is a minority that cannot fight, that cannot withdraw its labour, and that is being discriminated against in a way that the Government would not dare to attempt with the active members of the scheme. I appeal to the Minister to make representations to the Department of Finance in order that, when the Government gets the money, there is nowhere more appropriate for a small proportion of it to go than to treat these people with equality, justice and fairness.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I assure the Deputy that I am absolutely aware of the difficulty and concerns that these individuals face. I have met them and I have had much dealing on their behalf, but a challenge that must be faced is the request - a request made by Deputy Ross and many of the deferrees also - to go against a recommendation from a trustee of the fund who has statutory responsibility for its management. This is a fund which reported a deficit of €769 million on 27 March 2013. The fund has received additional support from the employers involved totalling €260 million - €190 million from Aer Lingus and €72 million from daa. Included within that is €60 million for deferred members, €20 million of which is an increase due to engagement with the expert panel. I would appreciate if the Deputy could clarify his position on the matter. I understand that on 2 February 2015 Deputy Ross wrote in an article stating that the State should not sell its stake in Aer Lingus, yet he has now asked in the Dáil Chamber that I sell the stake to deal with this matter.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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The Minister is being quite frankly ridiculous. That is a trivial point. I am saying that in the event of Aer Lingus being sold the money should go to these people.

The Minister made an absurd point. He is particularly compromised on this issue because it involves a large number of voters in his constituency. This makes it very difficult for him to make objective judgments on a matter of this nature and will obviously influence his decision.

The Minister should be aware that the companies in question have issued strident documents to the employees in which they are told to sign a waiver or see their pensions go up in smoke. The employees are being asked to forego their legal right to sue or take action in future. These letters are placing additional pressure on people to give up their legal rights. The Minister is not being fair to these people who have been treated extraordinarily badly. The money will be available. The Minister should contradict the trustee - that is precisely what I am asking - and act in the just and fair interests of people who served the nation well.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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If I had contradicted the trustee, Deputy Ross would have come to the House the following day to accuse me of taking an action that went against the recommendation of a trustee of the largest pension fund in the country.

I was struck by the Deputy's description of my motives in this matter. He implied that he is completely insulated from any electoral concerns in respect of the issues that are being raised. It is not ridiculous to point out that he has taken an inconsistent position in this matter when, on the one hand, he opposes the sale of Aer Lingus, while, on the other, he argues that the company should be sold to deal with the matter he raises in this question.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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That is a gross and deliberate misrepresentation of what I said. I stated that if there is money available, it should be provided for this purpose. The Minister's statement is outrageous.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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This is a very vexed issue on which Deputy Ross is trying to play both sides. We are discussing a pension fund that has a deficit of more than €760 million, and a further contribution of €260 million has been made to address the issue we are discussing. The Deputy did not acknowledge that point. I fully understand the concern and worry that many people are experiencing. The challenge facing me was that if I had taken any other course of action, I would have deepened this worry and caused greater concern for even more people.