Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to raise the role and powers of the National Transport Authority to deal with applications from companies that want to reduce their bus services through various areas throughout the country. I am raising this matter because of a recent letter I received from the chief executive of the National Transport Authority concerning services by Bus Éireann and Kavanagh's Buses through several midland counties. One sentence in the letter is most disturbing. It states: "Where operators apply to withdraw or curtail services the authority will grant such amendments as it has no legislative powers to refuse them." What is the purpose of having a regulator or authority if it has no powers to deal with issues that affect paying customers?

The letter also stated that Bus Éireann provides commercial route 7 between Cork and Dublin via Clonmel and Kilkenny. The service is licensed by the National Transport Authority. The authority recently granted an amendment to this licence which incorporated essentially going on the motorway in a more direct manner to Dublin Airport and the withdrawal of all services south of Clonmel. There has also been a withdrawal of all services provided to a number of intermediate locations, including Kilsheelan, Carrick-on-Suir, Paulstown, Muine Bheag, Royal Oak cross, Leighlinbridge, Carlow Institute of Technology, Carlow town, Castlecomer, Crettyard, Newtown, Ballylinan, which are in County Laois, Athy, Kilcullen and Naas.

According to the National Transport Authority, J.J. Kavanagh provides commercial route 717 on the same route. The service is also licensed by the authority. The authority has recently made an offer of an amendment to the withdrawal of this licence, which incorporates the introduction of faster routes along the motorway and a withdrawal of services being provided to Castlecomer, Ballylinan, KiIcullen and Naas.

It is an outright disgrace that all the authority does is rubber-stamp an application. Why bother having a transport authority if bus operators can do what they like in these situations? No public consultation is allowed by law. It is a hidden process and customers only know about changes when a notice is posted on the local bus stating that it will not be there next week.

These operators provide a service to carry people to work in all those towns, as well as to attend hospital and medical appointments and for shopping. The bus services also take pupils to school and students to Carlow IT. My colleague, Deputy John McGuinness, has attended many meetings on this issue in the Kilkenny and Castlecomer area, while Deputy Ó Fearghaíl, has attended similar meetings in Kildare.

This is a major issue and it is not the first time these bus operators have acted thus. Kavanagh's has already been allowed by the National Transport Authority to abandon people in Castledermot, Crookstown and Ballitore in County Kildare, all in order to get to the airport quicker from some other location. In addition, the National Transport Authority approved the entire abandonment by Bus Éireann of Abbeyleix, Durrow and Cullahill on the Dublin-Cork route last year, and more recently the abandonment of Mountrath, Castletown and Boris-in-Ossory in County Laois on the Dublin-Limerick route, all in order to go on the motorway.

I wrote to the chief executive of Bus Éireann and have also spoken to him about this matter. I have also contacted the National Roads Authority. There are six routes in each direction by Bus Éireann daily, while Kavanagh's has five buses in each direction in those areas. I have suggested that if some people want to travel more quickly by motorway, three or four buses could do so. However, the operators should not abandon the 12 buses that are passing through those towns and villages daily. They could have agreed to leave a proportion of them.

It should be remembered that they receive a public service obligation contribution from the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport. I will raise that matter in my supplementary question. They should not continue to get that PSO payment for a reduction in services.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. I am very much aware of the importance of this matter and of the concern felt by many about the withdrawal, or threat of withdrawal, of bus services from their towns and villages. My colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Ann Phelan, and I met last evening with residents from some of the towns affected by these changes.

At a national level, the National Transport Authority, NTA, has responsibility for securing the provision of public passenger land transport services. This includes the provision of subvented bus and rail services by Bus Éireann, Dublin Bus and Irish Rail. The NTA also licenses commercial bus passenger services. Under the Public Transport Regulation Act 2009, the NTA assumed responsibility for the regulation of commercial bus passenger services. The Act obliges all operators to be licensed if they are providing public bus passenger services, and it is applied equally to both private and State companies. Public service obligation services covered by public service contracts do not fall within the licensing system.

Commercial bus services are licensed in accordance with the provisions of the Public Transport Regulation Act 2009 and in line with the NTA's published guidelines for the licensing of public bus passenger services. The guidelines are published on the NTA's website. The guidelines were prepared in accordance with the detailed provisions set out in section 23 of the 2009 Act. Where operators apply to withdraw or curtail commercial bus services, the NTA will grant such amendments as it has no legislative powers to refuse them. In such circumstances, the NTA may examine whether, in the absence of any commercial services, a public service obligation exists to provide socially necessary, but commercially unviable, public transport services. Such examination will include an assessment of the demand for public transport services and options either to reconfigure existing PSO services or to tender competitively for the provision of services. In either event, the NTA's ability to provide such services is subject to the availability of funding.

I need not remind the Deputy of the huge pressure on public finances that our Government inherited. Despite this, with our economy now recovering, I was able to secure an additional €101 million in funding for our public transport companies in a Supplementary Estimate at the end of last year. I was also able to maintain the level of PSO funding in 2015, as was provided in 2014. This is the first time there has not been a cut in PSO funding since the economy collapsed.

I am acutely aware of the concerns of many people regarding recent decisions to withdraw services to a number of intermediate locations on major routes into Dublin. Major improvements to the national roads network, including the M9 motorway, have provided the opportunity for commercial bus operators to offer improved journey times between Dublin and the regional cities in particular. Bus Éireann and other commercial bus operators have sought to amend their licences accordingly, with the consequent effect of reducing the level of service provided to a number of intermediate locations in the network. The NTA has indicated it will examine options either to reconfigure existing PSO services or to tender competitively for the provision of services to those areas affected by the changes. It must be recognised, however, that any such initiatives that involve additional PSO services would require a further increase in available funding.

It should also be noted that the 2009 Act provides that the NTA must undertake a review of the operation of the licensing of public bus passenger services within five years. I understand that the NTA intends to engage in a public consultation this year on this issue, and I will examine carefully any proposed changes to the licensing regime arising from that review. I assure the Deputy that I will also be examining this very issue in the coming weeks.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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According to his response, the Minister has accepted that the decision is in his hands. He said the NTA will look at a reconfiguration of the public service obligation concerning these routes in such situations. It may also possibly consider a competitive tender for the provision of a route that requires a public service obligation.

Taxpayers' money is required to do this and it is stated that it is subject to funding from the Minister's Department. There is no point in the NTA proceeding if the Minister is not going to provide the necessary funding.

The Estimates meeting relating to the Department may already have taken place last week or it may be proceeding next week. When the Estimate for the Department comes before the House for approval, we will want to see that additional funding is being provided. Deputy McGuinness and I would like the Minister to indicate whether he gave commitments on this matter to the people he met in the past day or so. A temporary bus service, provided to get the Government over the hump until after the next general election, will be seen as just that. The public will see through any attempt to fool them for the next 12 months.

Does the Minister of State, Deputy Anne Phelan, to whom the Minister referred and who is responsible for rural development, have access to funding which might help ameliorate the position? The Minister of State is presiding over the withdrawal of services from rural areas, which is her mission and which is the reason she was appointed. It is important to make that point.

We know there are difficulties. The Minister cannot continue to give the €60 million or €70 million from the public service obligation to Bus Éireann, particularly in circumstances where it continues to withdraw services here, there and everywhere. Essentially, the company is now just a motorway bus operator and it is abandoning towns in every county throughout Ireland. Tipperary has been affected in this regard but the Deputies from that county will highlight that fact on another occasion. Deputy McGuinness and I are concerned about the routes from Castlecomer that runs into County Laois through Crettyard, Newtown, Ballylinan and on to Athy in County Kildare. Some routes out of Carlow have already been discontinued. The Minister indicated that this matter may be reconsidered but the NTA's letter clearly states that it has approved the relevant changes. We want the Minister to provide the funding to replace the services in question.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy has just put on the record of the Dáil his request that I should withdraw PSO funding for Bus Éireann.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I did not.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy just asked me to do that. If I were to do so, the effect on people's ability to travel throughout rural and urban areas of Ireland would be devastating. The Deputy has asked me to address and issue while simultaneously requesting that I withdraw the PSO funding for the public transport company whose job it is to respond to the challenges he has outlined.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I was referring to the money relating to the routes I mentioned.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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On two occasions, the Deputy asked me to withdraw the funding.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am only talking about routes. I will not be misquoted by the Minister.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I have been very clear-----

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order, the Minister misquoted what I said. I stated that PSO money should be withdrawn in respect of the routes the company is not covering and that is should be redirected-----

Jack Wall (Kildare South, Labour)
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Deputy Sean Fleming should resume his seat.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry that my repeating what the Deputy said-----

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy just indicated that he did not say it.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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-----has had such an effect on him. I hope he appreciates the consequence of the course of action he has just outlined.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Sean Fleming did not recommend what the Minister is suggesting.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I say to him what I said to the residents I met last night, namely, that I recognise this issue is having an effect on people. Much of this is due to the fact that a motorway, which was needed, has been put in place and is providing quicker access across particular areas throughout the country. Bus Éireann is now using the motorway in question and this is having an effect on communities. Last night, I asked the residents I met to indicate whether there are journeys they make frequently on particular routes where the provision of services would be of help to them. I informed them that when I receive the relevant information from them, I will examine it in conjunction with representatives from the NTA in order to discover how we might respond to this issue.

As the Deputy knows well, the Government that was led by his party introduced the 2009 Act under which the NTA was established. He, therefore, clearly understands how all of this works and that the NTA spends taxpayers' money which I make available to it. The legislation, which was introduced by the previous Government, gave rise to a welcome and beneficial change in the context of ensuring that we can spend taxpayers' money well. While I recognise the role played by the NTA, I also accept that this issue is the cause of frustration for people. As I outlined in my earlier contribution, the NTA will examine the position.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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There is a social need as well as a financial consideration.