Dáil debates

Wednesday, 11 February 2015

Education (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2014 [Seanad]: Second Stage

 

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

10:40 am

Photo of Jan O'SullivanJan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I am pleased to bring the Education (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2014 before the House. The main purposes of the Bill are to provide for the authorisation by the Minister of the use of the description "university" by high-quality education providers for specified purposes outside the State; to amend the Student Support Act 2011 to ensure that the Minister has the power to prescribe post-leaving certificate courses for the purposes of the student grant scheme; and to amend the Education Act 1998 to provide for a refusal of access to specified information that would enable the compilation of comparative information on relative school performance in terms of their students' academic achievement.

The Universities Act 1997 provides the legal framework for the operation and establishment of universities in Ireland. As part of that framework, a legal limitation on the use of the title "university" lies in section 52 of the Act. This section provides that, with the exception of the seven universities listed in the Act and any education institution or facility established and described as a university before the end of July 1996, no person can use the word "university" to describe an educational institution or facility. The programme for Government contains a commitment to "encourage more international students to study here and to create new jobs in the sector", with the particular aim of doubling the number of students from priority and emerging markets outside the European Union. In support of this aim, the international education strategy is being implemented to put in place the necessary policies and actions to support the development of internationally oriented, globally competitive higher education institutions within Ireland. However, global competition for higher education is high. Increasing access to online information for students and their families, coupled with international marketing and recruitment campaigns, means that a growing number of educational institutions have international recognition worldwide. International recognition of the quality of both the educational institution and the qualifications on offer are a key issue in attracting students to study here in Ireland.

Greater efforts are required at national and institutional level to enhance awareness of the national brand and promote understanding of what Irish institutions offer to prospective international students and partners in simple terms that are understood worldwide.

In this context, it has become clear that the limitations prescribed by the Universities Act need to be re-examined. The use of section 52 does not serve to decide an application by an Irish institution that needs to convey the level and quality of its education abroad to an international audience.

This new legislation is required to put in place an application process for an Irish institution to use the description "university" to convey the level and quality of its education. It is, of course, paramount to Ireland's internationalisation effort that the quality and reputation of our higher education institutions remain fully intact. We are rightly proud in this country that we are leaders in Europe in terms of the quality and qualifications architecture that has been put in place by the legislation that was brought through the Houses two years ago. I will protect and enhance that reputation. The Bill ensures that this opportunity will be open only to the highest-quality providers. An application will only be permissible for a provider with the statutory authority to make its own awards to doctoral degree level and whose awards are recognised on the National Framework of Qualifications.

These strict criteria have been included to ensure that a provider authorised to use the title for the specified purposes is offering education at a level comparable to that offered by universities and that is recognised to be such under the framework. In practice, these criteria mean that a qualifying provider would be subject to external quality assurance by QQI.

A provider that applies must also have a very strong internationalisation mission as its core focus, and its ability to contribute to Ireland's strategic position on internationalisation must not be constrained by a lack of understanding of its status outside Ireland. For this reason, an applicant provider must already have 40% of its registered student body in Ireland as non-EU students.

Supporting the export activities of our leading internationally oriented institutions also contributes to the Government's job creation agenda. International evidence indicates that high-quality international education supports job creation and retention, and the international education sector is a priority sector under the Action Plan for Jobs. Employment in Ireland is created and supported through tuition fee income in education institutions and student expenditure in the economy, which boosts domestic demand. Estimates of the impact of international education on the Irish economy usually range from €800 million to €1 billion.

Section 53 of the Education Act 1998 currently gives the Minister the necessary powers to prevent the release of assessment and examination data held by bodies under the aegis of the Department of Education and Skills. Successive Governments have been of the view that access to such data would permit the creation and publication of crude league tables. Such tables would have the potential to be damaging to students, schools and the system as a whole, particularly as they would not be contextualised. I support that view.

While I support the Freedom of Information Act 2014, which significantly extends the range of public bodies that will come under the ambit of freedom of information, it is necessary for section 53 to be amended to ensure that the long-standing protection of examination and assessment data remains in place and that the issue of crude and distorting league tables does not arise. However, within the spirit of the freedom of information legislation, I am taking a focused approach to amending section 53 of the Education Act 1998. The proposed amendment provides for the Minister of Education and Skills, in consultation with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, to regulate access to the examination and assessment data held by specific listed bodies. Providing for regulation in this way gives flexibility by allowing the list of specific bodies to be amended in the future by way of statutory instrument. The proposed regulations will prescribe only a limited list of public bodies, such as education and training boards, or ETBs, ETB schools, ETB education and training facilities, the State Examinations Commission, the Education Research Centre and the National Council for Special Education, all of which hold examination and assessment information in the course of carrying out their functions.

The amendment will also ensure that the prohibition applies only where it is necessary. Prescribed public bodies provided for in this amendment that currently release or share assessment and examination data with other public bodies for purposes of research will continue to be able to do so subject to ministerial approval or direction. The existing position, which permits higher education institutions such as universities and institutes of technology to release such information on the schools that their student intake attended, will be maintained.

I am amending the Student Support Act with this Bill by way of a short technical amendment clarifying the description of post-leaving certificate courses under the current Act. The provision of grants for students participating in further and higher education is provided for by way of secondary legislation through an annual scheme of grants and a set of

As it currently stands, an approved institution in the further education sector is one that receives a grant out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas, pursuant to a scheme administered by the Minister, for the provision of PLC courses. Following the transfer of the administration of these courses to SOLAS after its establishment last year, I am proposing to remove, for clarity, the current reference to PLC courses as being "pursuant to a scheme administered by the Minister". This will be addressed by way of this simple technical amendment.

I will now turn to the Bill itself. It is set out in 11 sections. The principal purpose of sections 2 to 5 is to provide for the authorisation of the use of the description "university" in limited circumstances outside the State for specified purposes; for review of the authorisation by an túdarás; for the withdrawal of the authorisation by the Minister on the grounds that it is not being used for the specified purposes or that the provider no longer fulfils the qualifying criteria for application; and for an appeals board to hear appeals relating either to a Minister's decision to refuse to grant an authorisation or a decision to withdraw an authorisation.

The intent of the legislation as drafted is to strongly restrict eligibility on quality grounds and mission focus for this authorisation. Eligibility is restricted to providers that are authorised under Irish law to make their own awards, providers that have doctoral degrees recognised through the National Framework of Qualifications, and providers whose student body enrolled in Ireland consists of at least 40% non-EU citizens who are lawfully resident in the State primarily for education and training. It excludes those with delegated authority to make awards, such as the institutes of technology and potentially private higher education institutions, in the future.

The use of the title is also restricted in its geographical application and in the purposes for which it can be used. Use of the title is restricted to outside the State and for the following purposes: to market programmes of education and training provided by the authorised provider, or research services of the authorised provider; and to enter into an arrangement with any person outside the State for the purpose of participating in a collaborative project relating to the provision of programmes of education and training, or research services.

Section 6 provides for an amendment to the Universities Act 1997 and will amend section 52 to ensure that an authorised provider under this Act is exempted from the prohibition on the use of the title in the Universities Act.

Section 7 provides for a refusal of access to specified information through an amendment of section 53 of the Education Act 1998, as amended by section 5 of the Education (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2007. The Education Act 1998 is amended by the substitution of a new section 53, which confers on public bodies, within the meaning of the Freedom of Information Act 2014 prescribed in regulations made by the Minister following consultation with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, the necessary powers to refuse access to information that would enable the compilation of information in regard to the comparative performance of schools in respect of the academic achievement of their students or learners.

Section 8, which amends section 7 of the Student Support Act 2011, will reflect the Department's decision to transfer the administration of the PLC scheme to SOLAS on the basis of its general functions relating to further education and training under section 7(1) of the Further Education and Training Act 2013. This change will remove the reference in the legislation to PLC courses as "pursuant to a scheme administered by the Minister" in section 7 of the Student Support Act, ensuring clarity regarding the basis for prescribing PLC courses for the purpose of the student grant scheme.

Section 9 provides for the service of documents. Section 10 provides for the expenses of the Minister in the administration of the Act to be sanctioned and paid. Section 11 sets out the Short Title, collective citations and commencement provisions.

This Bill is an important step in promoting Ireland's ambitions for internationalisation and for the protection of the educational interests of our children. I hope Deputies will agree it is vital. During its passage through the Seanad, there was a very useful exchange of views with Senators. I look forward to listening to the views of Deputies today and to further debate as the Bill progresses through the Houses of the Oireachtas. I commend it to the House.

10:50 am

Photo of Barry CowenBarry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Fianna Fáil supports, and in government introduced, an international education strategy that endorses and promotes the internationalisation of universities. We supported this Bill in the Seanad and, in principle, we support its passage here. However, we want reassurance from the Minister that allowing certain colleges to describe themselves internationally as universities will not undermine the standing of Irish universities.

While this Bill will allow additional third level institutions to market themselves as universities abroad in their attempt to attract higher numbers of international students, the Government must do much more to arrest sliding quality standards in third level institutions that have been brought about by the savage cuts in the sector.

We acknowledge the importance of the main element of this Bill, allowing additional third level institutions to describe themselves as "university" for marketing, branding and research purposes outside the State under the condition that these institutions can already make awards to doctoral degree level in the State and already have at least 40% of their registered students from outside the EU. The need to allow these institutions to describe themselves as universities outside of the State has arisen from the concerns expressed by some institutions that the word "college" has less pulling power than "university". In the United States, for example, a college is assumed to mean a second level institution. Therefore, the change is to be welcomed as part of an overall strategy in promoting Irish education abroad.

We welcome the fact that the key beneficiary of this will be the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland, which already has a significant number of international students. The Bill will allow it use the term "university" for marketing purposes or for engaging in collective projects related to training and research. On this basis, we support the Bill in principle. However, as I stated, we want reassurance from the Minister that allowing certain colleges to describe themselves internationally as universities will not undermine the standing of Irish universities.

We are fully committed to promoting Ireland as a centre for international education. However, any efforts and strategies in this regard must be sustainable and, most importantly, they must have the needs of individual learners at their heart. The interests of students are at the core of our concerns. We believe that we must continue to offer international students a high-quality education and a unique student experience that is based on strong integration with their Irish peers. We also believe that the Irish education brand needs to prioritise quality teaching and quality research metrics. As a small country with relatively limited brand recognition in key markets, Ireland's entire international education offer needs to be based on the quality of its outputs. The quality of Irish education needs to become Ireland's main strength in these markets and needs to be the key element of any brand marketing pursued in new and existing markets. An internationalisation strategy that emphasises and prioritises quality will also be of benefit to Irish universities and to Irish students. It will allow Irish universities to target international students who themselves are of both high quality and high value, thus meeting our collective long-term strategic goals in an optimal and efficient way.

As Fianna Fáil set out in its international education strategy 2010-2015 during the previous Government, the promotion of Ireland as a destination for international students should not seek to position Ireland as a mass-market player. The central principle guiding efforts to promote Irish education to international students under that strategy was long-term and sustainable, recognising that our eventual success would be judged not by how many international students we educated but by who we educated and how well we educated them. The international education strategy recognised that in a world of increasing globalisation and interconnectedness with the emergence of new powerhouse economies and the reorientation of the world economy, Ireland needed to take a strategic approach to developing relationships that will be of national importance in the coming years. It recognised the need to develop mutually beneficial relationships with countries which are strategically important to Ireland's long-term national interests.

The ambition we set out in this five-year strategy was for Ireland to become a global leader in the provision of high-quality education to the next generation of leaders, entrepreneurs and decision-makers, who will make a difference in their own countries and who will form vital networks of influence for Ireland. As was pointed out at the time, we have strong advantages in this area. Our education system has a long history of international engagement and is globally respected. Other advantages stem from ours being a small, safe and friendly country, a member of the European Union and with extensive global links through our diaspora. As an English-speaking country with a unique cultural heritage and universities that are respected, are held in high esteem and have a long lineage, we are well positioned to attract international students. It was on this basis that we brought forward a partnership-based strategy, looking to build on our inherent advantages to position Ireland as a world leader in the delivery of high-quality international education by providing a unique experience and long-term value to students.

Since the launch of that strategy, universities have seen significant increases in the number of international students enrolled from the key countries targeted. The United States is a priority market for the promotion of Irish education under the international education strategy. The most recent US data, from the Institute of International Education, indicates that Ireland has retained its position as one of the top ten destinations of choice for US study-abroad students, those being students who spent part of their programme studying overseas, showing 9% growth year on year during the period. Despite strong international competition, 7,640 US study-abroad students chose to do their period of study abroad in Ireland in 2013, compared with 7,007 in 2012 and 6,798 in 2011. In addition to the study abroad segment, more than 1,000 US students came to Ireland on a full-time higher education programme. Students have also increased from emerging countries, especially India and China. Latest available data suggest that there has been a 142% increase in study applications from India since 2012 and a 9% year-on-year increase from China during the same period.

While the international education strategy since 2009 has been a success, the Government needs to give greater support to third level institutions to help them attract international students. In particular, the Government must do more than this Bill to boost the international reputations of our third level institutions and provide them with the resources to compete internationally. There has been a progressive reduction in Exchequer support for universities and institutes of technology. On the one hand, these cuts have increased the need to diversify resources, something to which the universities are committed, as reflected in the fact that a significant proportion of university funding is now from private sources. However, reductions in funding and head count, on the other hand, inevitably have a knock-on impact on certain metrics such as student-to-staff ratios and research and publication output. These declines feed into Ireland's ranking performance and our international competitiveness, and hence their attractiveness to international students.

While this Bill will allow additional third level institutions to market themselves as universities abroad in their attempt to attract higher numbers of international students, the Government must do much more to arrest sliding quality standards in third level institutions that have been brought about by cuts in the sector. Exchequer funding of all higher education institutions has been reduced by 32% in the past four years and there has been virtually no State investment in capital infrastructure in Irish universities and colleges over the term of Government. These funding cuts have taken place while numbers enrolling in the sector have soared. Despite increasing student fees, the Government has cut back on third level spending over the three years. Colleges and universities cannot be expected to maintain the same high standards while having substantial funding cuts imposed upon them. There is a real fear that these cuts damage teaching and research reputations at third level and make these institutions less attractive to students from abroad. The Government must do more than this Bill to boost the international reputation of our third level institutions and provide them with the resources to compete internationally.

Cutting the capitation funding to higher education has put universities and colleges under significant pressure. These cuts are having a detrimental impact on teaching and quality standards and, ultimately, students' education may suffer. Decisions like this have undoubtedly contributed to Irish universities' decline in international rankings. For instance, it is extremely worrying to see the country's largest university drop out of the top 200 rankings. Three years ago, UCD was ranked among the 100 best universities in the world, and this dramatic decline must cause concern to all.

The Minister must ensure that funding levels are maintained and investment in facilities, teaching and research is increased in order to protect third level standards and to prevent any further decline in the rankings. The scale of the cuts that have been levied on the education sector in the past three and a half years is no longer sustainable, and in terms of standards, is most definitely not affordable.

With regard to the other elements of the Bill, we welcome the amendment of the Student Support Act 2011, which ensures a basis for the Minister to prescribe PLC courses for the purpose of the student grant scheme. Again, that is a vital area of education which has suffered significantly in recent years. We hope the small measure announced in the Bill represents a sea change from the previous Minister's neglect of the PLC sector. Several issues must be addressed to arrest the slide in quality standards and pressures in the sector.

In budget 2013 the then Minister, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, implemented a significant attack on the post-leaving certificate, PLC, sector. He provided for a two-point increase in the pupil-teacher ratio for PLC schools. He saved €4 million and the PLC sector suffered the loss of 200 whole-time equivalent teaching posts. Due to budget changes last year, the pupil-teacher ratio in PLC programmes increased sharply, from 18.7 to 19.8.

The allocation to VECs was cut by €13 million. Capitation rates in PLC colleges and VTOS programmes were also cut by 2%. As part of the social welfare budget it was announced that from January 2013 the €300 cost of education allowance payable to back to education allowance participants would be discontinued for new and existing participants. As a result of the changes, the number of vocational schools offering PLC programmes dropped from 139 to 131. The decrease in the number of colleges offering PLC programmes is reflected in a drop of 1,521 students taking such programmes in 2013 to 2014, bringing their numbers down to 34,003. We call on the Minister to do more than what is provided for in this Bill to support the further education sector and to reverse the cuts that have been imposed on the sector in recent years.

11:10 am

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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We welcome the opportunity to debate the Bill. We opposed the Bill in the Seanad. I am sure the Minister is aware of the reasons for that. If not, we will discuss them on Committee Stage.

The Bill does three things, two of which we support. We fully support the initiatives being taken by the Government in terms of the Student Support Act and the provision for PLC courses. The latter is an important step and is something we sought previously. Other issues relating to student support must be examined, but probably not in the context of the Bill. Estrangement from parents is an issue that consistently comes up. Following the introduction of SUSI, when the awarding of student grants was brought into a centralised system, there were significant problems initially in year one, which would always have been the case, but since then much work has been done to streamline the operation. This year a student took a High Court case and won it, which meant she could eventually access her grant. The adjacent-rate grant must also be examined, perhaps not in the context of the Bill, but I wished to flag it.

We are also supportive of the amendment to the Education Act 1998 to provide for a refusal to access specified information which would enable the compilation of information for league tables and comparisons of schools with one another. I accept that we cannot be overly prescriptive. Parents and students need to access information on the quality of education in any institution, but we cannot have a situation in which information is used just to compile school league tables. We would be completely opposed to that.

The main purpose of the Bill, which has been outlined in some detail by the Minister and the previous speaker, Deputy Barry Cowen, is to allow certain institutions to brand and market themselves as universities outside the State. The Minister will introduce strict criteria in that regard, particularly in terms of the rule that 40% of the students of an institution must be from non-EU countries. To the best of my knowledge, that would prevent most institutions from being able to apply. Perhaps she could clarify the position in her closing remarks or on Committee Stage, but it is probable that the only institution that could apply is the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland, RCSI. It would probably be the only institution that would fulfil the criteria set out in the Bill and meet the requirements of the application process.

If an institution wants to improve its international standing in emerging markets then a name change in itself will not do that. Other measures would be required. King’s College in London and MIT do not call themselves universities, yet they are renowned throughout the world for the quality and output of education provided. We should be aware that having the title “university” is not the be all and end all in terms of improving an institution’s international standing.

A committee meeting was held to discuss RCSI and the human rights situation in Bahrain, which has been raised by many civil liberties groups. It is important that the situation be taken into account. I accept that it will not come under the terms of the Bill, as we cannot just pick on one particular college which might apply and benefit from the proposed change, but we must be careful, in bringing forward such legislation to allow institutions to brand themselves as universities outside of the State, that it does not have an adverse effect. If institutions could qualify and apply for a change in status and brand themselves as universities despite questions with regard to their stance on human rights issues, that could have a negative effect on universities within the State. Governance issues also arise. If an institution which can only market itself as a university outside of the State wished to become a university within the State, then changes would be required to its governance status. We must be careful that we are not taking a retrograde step in terms of allowing institutions whose position on human rights issues is the subject of question to brand themselves as universities.

Attracting international students is important, and not only in terms of education, and we fully support the ability of institutions to do so in order to finance themselves. Colleges must reach out beyond the State to attract more international students. The Minister outlined the economic benefit of marketing Ireland as a top provider of education. The matters to which I referred are critically important in terms of how we brand Irish education. We have concerns with the strict criteria set out. We accept that a balancing act is required. A high standard must be set in order for institutions to be allowed to describe themselves as universities, but my understanding is that only one institution will be able to benefit from the amendment that is being introduced. Perhaps the Minister would clarify the position. It is an issue we can examine on Committee Stage. We will table a number of amendments, particularly with regard to the changes to the Student Support Act. We hope the Minister will look favourably on their introduction, given that the Bill deals with miscellaneous issues.

Sinn Féin voted against it in the Seanad. I am probably minded to recommend that we vote against it in this House but we will not oppose Second Stage, rather we will await deliberations and submission of amendments on Committee Stage. Hopefully we can have a detailed discussion on Committee Stage of the particular issues and concerns of ours after which we will make a final decision on whether to support the Bill.

11:20 am

Photo of Derek KeatingDerek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Finian McGrath is sharing time but he may have the time to himself.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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My comrades are absent. I believe I may be sharing with Deputies John Halligan and Paul Murphy.

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on this legislation. I welcome debates on all levels of education. I will support this legislation because it has many positive provisions. The Minister may regard this as surprising because I usually give out to the Minister-----

(Interruptions).

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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-----but I am very supportive of this Bill.

I refer to Education in Ireland’s International Students in Higher Education 2011-2012, which states that the number of international students registered in Irish higher education institutions was comparatively stable for that period, at approximately 32,000. This is a substantial number of students but we should consider how this number can be increased.

There is great potential to develop this market further and to increase the number of students. However, we must take care to be respectful of these students. They must not be exploited as has happened in recent cases involving so-called international language colleges where they were treated very badly and disgracefully. Not only did these institutions let down the students and their families but they also let this country down. It is appropriate to state this fact in the debate. This Bill is to provide for quality education for international students who come to this country. The exploitation of students should never be an option.

In order to support the internationalisation of higher education in the State, the Bill makes provision to allow certain education providers to apply to the Minster for Education and Skills for authorisation to be described outside the State as a university for specified purposes. The Bill also allows the Minister to refuse access to certain specified information, exempting schools run by education and training boards from freedom of information law.

In 2011, the most recent year for which figures are available, almost 4.3 million students were enrolled at institutions outside their country of citizenship. Europe was the top destination for students studying outside their country of origin. European institutions hosted 48% of all these students while in comparison, North American institutions hosted 21%.

In order to support internationalisation of higher education in the State, pursuant to section 2 of the Bill, certain education providers can apply to the Minister for Education and Skills for authorisation to be described as a university outside the State for specified purposes. In her opening contribution the Minister described the main purpose of the Bill as being to provide for the authorisation of the description of "university" by a high quality education provider. This is a positive provision. Irish universities enjoy great international respect and we should not allow this reputation to be undermined. Ireland was once known as the island of saints and scholars and it is a reputation we should develop further. High profile educationalists, academics and researchers have given this country a good name. The brand names of Trinity College, UCD, UL and other institutions, are well-known internationally. It is important to emphasise that Ireland is a high quality provider. We should never allow our reputation to slide.

Section 8 of the Bill proposes an amendment to the Student Support Act 2011, to ensure a basis for the Minister to prescribe post-leaving certificate, PLC, courses for the purposes of the student grant scheme. The Minister proposes to amend the Education Act 1998, to provide for refusal of access to specified information that would enable the compilation of comparative information on relative school performances in terms of their students' academic achievement. This deals with the controversial issue of league tables.

As I stated earlier, according to Education in Ireland’s International Students in Higher Education 2011-2012, the number of international students registered in Irish higher education institutions was comparatively stable for that period, at around 32,000, an increase of around 2% over the previous year’s figures. The survey also outlines the following information on international students in Ireland during the period 2011 to 2012. Universities saw strong growth in their student numbers at 8% over the period, but there were declines in the institutes of technology, down 1% and in private colleges, down 22%. The number of doctoral students increased by 35%, accounting for 20% of Ireland’s international students, bringing Ireland’s performance in this area above international norms. Full-time degree student numbers increased by 6%. International students increased in all STEM fields - science, technology, engineering and maths. The best performing priority market was Malaysia, which saw 10% growth in student numbers. We should not forget the importance of mainstream academic learning.

The primary objective of the broader strategy is to enable Ireland to become internationally recognised and ranked as a world leader in the delivery of high quality education by providing students with a unique experience and long-term value. We give out about ourselves a lot but the vast majority of international students who come to Ireland really enjoy their experience, based on the quality of the third level institutions and also because of the dynamic culture and their host families. I agree there have been exceptions such as those colleges that shafted poor students and ripped off families. However, the vast majority of the students get on with their lives and are very positive and constructive in their views.

It is important that we maintain the high standards of education. The Minister and I have strong views on the proposed reform of the junior certificate. The Minister needs to be very careful with regard to standards and assessment. Internationalisation will be developed as a long-term and sustainable process, based on high quality and balanced engagement with international partners. The needs and interests of learners will be at the heart of the internationalisation process. The enhancement of Ireland’s performance will be based on collaborative effort, including the development of a shared national brand. We send trade missions to all parts of the world in an effort to create jobs and education plays a vital role in providing jobs. We can brand and sell our quality education internationally.

It could bring in money and resources, create jobs and sell the Irish brand internationally. The State's policies and actions should be consistent and supportive. There is huge potential for growth. We are focused on education and reform of the legislation, but there is also an economic and growth dimension to the topic. It is very important that we state this in the broader debate.

I welcome the broad thrust of the Bill and I will support it. Australia has the highest percentage of international students in its total higher education student population, at approximately 19.8%. In the Irish education system, 6.5% of all students are international students, which is below the OECD average of 6.9%. We should aim for 19.8% because there is huge potential to develop the education sector, create jobs and put Irish education on the international map.

11:30 am

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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The Bill authorises the Government to describe an education provider as a university for a particular purpose. I want to ask questions on why the Government is using the merger process to create certain institutes which it will describe as technological universities. I believe it is to fob off voters in several regions of the country. This is not a political statement, and I will go into detail as to why I believe this is the case.

More than €400,000 has been spent on the planned merger between Waterford Institute of Technology and Institute of Technology, Carlow. This was suspended last year when Waterford IT pulled out of the negotiations following the leak of a report commissioned by the college, which was subsequently withdrawn, which stated the merger would hinder rather than help Waterford IT's bid for university status and would delay the process for up to five years. The lecturing staff in Waterford IT have made clear their views on the merger process and they are in the Labour Court. Their trade union representatives recently met Michael Kelly, who is overseeing the process, and told him they did not want to be forced into the merger. They also made the point that the goalposts for university designation have kept changing over the years, depending on what political wind has been blowing. My information is Mr. Kelly told the TUI and Waterford IT that the institute being allowed to stand alone was not envisaged by the Department of Education and Skills. Over recent years, I have spoken about this to a number of Ministers with responsibility for education. There seems to be a fear factor in the Department about coming out honestly and straightforwardly and taking what will come if it does not leave Waterford IT stand alone. It should tell the people of Waterford what it will do. Will the Department merge Waterford IT with IT Carlow or will the Minister allow it to stand alone?

Photo of Jan O'SullivanJan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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The merger is in the original terms of reference. You know that.

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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All of the indications and statistics, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and report after report have stated Waterford IT needs to stand alone as a university. Its catchment area is as big as Galway or Cork. This has not been stated explicitly by any Minister. They have not come to Waterford. There are all types of indications. The Minister has established another commission and we do not know what will happen. Will it state Waterford IT should stand alone or merge? A merger will not be acceptable to the people of Waterford. They believe that after this length of time and the quality of Waterford IT that it should have stand-alone status. The Minister needs to confirm whether this is correct. If she had no intention of taking on board the concerns of the academic body in Waterford IT why did she send Michael Kelly to conduct a process in the first place? My suspicion, having spoken to some of the lecturers, is the Government was willing to listen but we do not know what has happened since.

Recently, the Oireachtas Committee of Public Accounts was told that negotiations for the Waterford IT merger were at a delicate stage and that it would not be helpful to bring all of the reasons the process broke down into open public discussion and have a broad-ranging debate on it. As someone who was elected to best represent the interests of the people of Waterford I cannot accept this. If almost €500,000 of taxpayer's money has been spent on this process, in the interests of transparency those taxpayers have every right to know where it all went wrong. It is incumbent on the Minister to explain precisely what is going on with the merger.

This does not only apply to Waterford IT. This week, TUI branch members at Cork Institute of Technology, CIT, stated they are unconvinced of the benefits for all stakeholders of a merger between Cork IT and Institute of Technology, Tralee. Branch committees of Cork IT and IT Tralee have unanimously declared no confidence in the process. They are now demanding the Department of Education and Skills and the Minister listen to their concerns or, I am told, they will ballot for non-co-operation including industrial action.

It would appear the entire merger plan is falling apart at the seams even before it has begun, based on the information and what has been said at the Oireachtas Committee of Public Accounts. I have further serious concerns about the costing of these new technological universities. The Higher Education Authority, HEA, has admitted to the Committee of Public Accounts that the creation of technological universities will have to be done in an innovative shoestring way, such is the lack of State funding being made available. This is an extraordinary statement coming from the HEA, that if it is done at all it will be half done. If something is held together using a shoestring I do not fancy its chances of it staying together. This says it all about the importance the Government places on the third level sector.

Lecturing staff in Waterford IT told me the merger process will have to be achieved through further efficiency or cuts in services, neither of which can be sustained in the sector in light of the growing number of students entering the education system and the drop in resources. There is no doubt that rationalisation will certainly result in reduced course provision in both institutes. A panel of international experts which assessed the proposals has expressed concern at the absence of further traditional supports for the institutes. Given the current state of the public finances I do not envisage any additional funds. I am interested to hear the Minister's views on this.

Under the provisions of the technological universities Bill there arises the possibility that the merged entity may be refused technological university designation by the HEA and remain a merged entity indefinitely without gaining any of the envisaged benefits of technological university status. To my mind, and to the minds of many lecturers and almost all of the people in Waterford, the merger process to create a new so-called university is an exercise in political posturing. It is messing with the lives of thousands of young people in the regions. People in Waterford will not be placated with a pat on the back and assurances that the Government has their best interests at heart.

Where would one get anything like this, whereby so much money has been spent and so many reports have been written? This would not happen in any other country. In the manifestoes of various Governments, including Fianna Fáil Governments but not this Government, promises were made that Waterford IT would gain university status-----

Photo of Jan O'SullivanJan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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That is the intention.

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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-----because all of the information, statistics and reasonably-minded people with know-how regarding universities state it deserves it, but we still do not know what is going on. It is shameful and a terrible way to treat a constituency.

11:40 am

Photo of Derek KeatingDerek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Paul Murphy has ten minutes.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, Socialist Party)
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I do not think I will use the ten minutes. This Bill offers an opportunity to discuss our approach to foreign students in Ireland. Its primary substantive purpose is to allow the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland, although it is a university, to use the name "university" abroad when marketing itself. That notion of universities marketing themselves abroad for foreign students goes to the heart of the problem with our third level system - that it is starved of funding - and our education system generally. There have been repeated cutbacks and attempts by successive Governments to reintroduce full third level fees, and when the current Government was knocked back by a protest movement and by the Opposition it did it through the back door, by allowing registration fees to be raised to the ridiculous level of €3,000, when only a number of years ago they were a minimal amount.

Funding remains a problem for our third level sector because it has not managed to introduce full fees while at the same time not being funded properly through central taxation. The answer to that problem has been to go for international students as bit of a cash cow. The more international students we can get, the more money we can get, and that will provide the things that universities and third level institutions would like to provide. We must reflect on that. Is that the way we want to present our education system and is it the way we want to present ourselves to international students? They are seen as a cash cow.

When the international students come here they are not given a thousand welcomes. A few months ago, one could have seen, even at 10 o'clock at night, a significant number of people, primarily students, queueing outside the Garda National Immigration Bureau, GNIB. At other times of the year the queues start at 5 a.m. or 6 a.m. as people are forced to jump through hoops in the absence of an online application system. That is demonstrative of the way they are treated. The reality is that they are seen as cash cows. They come here but then they are not afforded appropriate rights. Their visas do not give them full residency status. As I understand it, their time here as students does not count towards their citizenship. Students who have children here while they are students or soon afterwards are not entitled to citizenship for their children. They are treated in a certain way that is not very welcoming.

Another case to highlight, which again demonstrates this point, is the situation facing those students whose universities or institutions, particularly language institutions, have closed. They have been left in an extremely precarious position because their visas were linked to their courses and now that their courses have been stopped they have been left hanging. I spoke to a range of those students, and I have participated in a range of these protests, and they do not feel welcomed into this country.

The Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland is part of the National University of Ireland, NUI, and it could market itself in that way. Surely we should have an approach that is not just about milking international students. We should have give international students full rights so that they are not forced to queue outside the GNIB, and they should not have to pay the massive fees they are being forced to pay. They should not be discriminated against relative to Irish or other EU students. We should fund our education system properly through progressive central taxation, as opposed to simply relying on them and then treating them in that way.

Photo of Derek KeatingDerek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I understand Deputy Mulherin is sharing time with Deputies Paul Connaughton, Jim Daly and Peter Fitzpatrick. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Photo of Michelle MulherinMichelle Mulherin (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the introduction of this Bill, which addresses the issue of support for the internationalisation of higher education within the State. I support the Minister's endeavours on the issues arising therefrom.

I want to take this opportunity to raise a local education issue. In an interview on a radio programme - I believe it was last Thursday morning - the Minister described the recent education initiatives that have been pursued by the Department with great success. In particular, she mentioned the Delivering Equality of Opportunity in Schools, DEIS, initiative and the beneficial influence it has had in terms of school attendance and student dropout rates, which have an effect on social problems into the future. DEIS, in particular, in helpful in certain area where we know there is social and educational disadvantage. I take the opportunity to raise this matter as I have tried other routes, including a Topical Issue debate. It is not so easy being a backbench Government Deputy, despite what is often said here about Members' ability to speak. The people who get to speak the least in this Chamber are Government backbench Deputies. The matter I raise is the DEIS status of a school in the barony of Erris, in the west of my county. Inver national school failed to be approved for DEIS status ten years ago. That was not because there is not social disadvantage in the area, or the pupils' parents are any better off than the parents of pupils in all the other schools in the Erris area that have been awarded DEIS status, but quite simply because a form was not returned at the time. The reason it was not returned is a separate issue, but it has been established that the form was not returned and it has also been established who was culpable for that. It was not the parents, it was not the board of management and it definitely was not the children. This is rural area with a dispersed population in which there are many small schools, and every one of them has been awarded DEIS status except this school.

Photo of Derek KeatingDerek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I apologise for cutting across the Deputy, but I must direct her to speak on the Bill.

Photo of Michelle MulherinMichelle Mulherin (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes. I will just finish this point. This has an effect on the school's eligibility for book grants, IT and transport provision. The school lost a teacher and there is educational disadvantage in this area. Now, ten years on, and into the future, whether the pupils attending that school go to university or whatever, they will experience the knock-on effects of not having the support that results from the awarding of DEIS status to a school. I ask the Acting Chairman for his indulgence.

Photo of Derek KeatingDerek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I direct the Deputy to speak on the Bill.

Photo of Michelle MulherinMichelle Mulherin (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am wrapping up. When the Minister is disbursing the budget, she must have regard for educational disadvantage in schools. There is educational disadvantage in this area. There have been reviews of DEIS schools, and it is a nonsense that this school has not been included. I know it has received legal advice and it has been established that there has been discrimination. I would ask that it not be let go at that, and that these pupils and the community be given the same boost and supports as all the other schools in the area. It is as plain as that. I ask the Minister to examine the matter.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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I sincerely thank the Technical Group for allowing me some of its speaking time to contribute to the debate on this Bill, which will provide authorisation for an education provider to describe itself as a university outside the State for specified purposes. I acknowledge the presence of the Minister. A previous speaker touched on the experiences of foreign students who come to this country. The parents of those foreign students work hard to ensure they have an opportunity to come here. Those students want to come here because of the excellent education they receive. It is widely recognised throughout Europe that our universities, in terms of their lecturers and the standard of education they provide, are second to none. We can hold our heads up high when it comes to the education that young people receive in our universities. It is important to make that point, because I would not want anybody to think that people who come here have a negative experience. From my dealings with students who come here, I have found that they are delighted with the standard of education they receive, with the welcome they get and with all the services provided to them. As in any area, they might be room for improvement in small ways, but overall they find attending our universities to be a happy and worthwhile educational experience. Our own young students benefit from the excellent wealth of experience that our lecturers bestow on students.

Our standard is very high and I want that message to go out during this debate. The Minister flags this at every opportunity because we want to sell ourselves as a centre of excellence when it comes to our universities.

With regard to the refusal of access to certain information related to the comparative academic performance of learners, when enacted the Freedom of Information Bill 2013 will extend the application of FOI to a range of new public bodies, including education and training boards, their schools and other education centres. The Bill will also extend the application of FOI to bodies which are not public bodies but are substantially funded by a public body such as, for example, the CAO.

The Bill will provide for a new version of section 53 of the Education Act 1998 and this will provide bodies prescribed by the Minister with the power to refuse access to information which would enable the compilation of a league table which would be related to the academic performance of students or learners in schools and education centres. A previous speaker used this opportunity to raise an issue. When discussing education we have to consider where it starts, which is when children go to their first school. The proposed changes to the pupil-teacher ratio will have a detrimental effect on our two and three-teacher schools. Another speaker got an opportunity to broaden-----

11:50 am

Photo of Derek KeatingDerek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The other speaker was interrupted three times. I have to be consistent.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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The Acting Chairman has done that once to me.

Photo of Jan O'SullivanJan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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There are no proposed cuts. Anything that is done is done. Everything was done in the last budget.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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There was an announcement that class sizes would change from 12 to 20. The Minister knows the detrimental effect that will have. Schools, in particular those in my county, are facing the possibility of losing teachers and in some instances we will lose schools. These schools are cherished in communities, and have provided an excellent level of education and a great grounding for young people who we want, in turn, to go on and attend our universities. Coming back to the Bill-----

Photo of Derek KeatingDerek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I did give the Deputy discretion.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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I thank the Acting Chairman. When considering a Bill like this it is important to examine where education starts. At the end of the day, it is all about nurturing our young people and giving them the best start and finish that we can. The Minister has an opportunity to put right the wrongs of the past number of years, during which education got a hammering and our schools were put in danger. There is no point in discussing what happened in the past or before the Minister's watch. If schools close on her watch, that is her responsibility.

Photo of Jan O'SullivanJan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I understand that.

Photo of Derek KeatingDerek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Come back to the Bill, Deputy.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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She is the Minister for Education and Skills and should always remember that the buck stops at her table. It is her responsibility. The Taoiseach gave her the responsibility up to which she has to live. If schools are to close on her watch, it will be for that she will be remembered.

Photo of Derek KeatingDerek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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On chairing this session, the buck stops with me. I ask the Deputy to revert to the Bill.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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I will. The Acting Chairman is the boss and I very much respect that.

I refer to the two requirements for authorisation that the education provider must fulfil. The first is the authority to make awards to at least degree level. The second is that at least 40% of the provider's student enrolment in the State must be made up of students from outside of the member state who are lawfully in the State primarily to receive education and training. That brings me back to the experience of young people who come from abroad. In places like Galway the mix of foreign students with our own leads to a very meaningful experience. They enjoy themselves while getting their education. There is a social aspect to the experience when our students intermingle with those from abroad, and everyone is the richer for that experience.

How much time remains in the debate?

Photo of Derek KeatingDerek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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There are another 12 minutes. Leaders' Questions starts at 12 noon. The Deputy has four minutes remaining to talk about the Bill.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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It is no problem to talk about the Bill. A lot of work has gone into preparing the Bill. In the overall context of the Bill, it has merits and positive sides. I welcome it coming before the House. I again refer to our schools. I would like to hear the Minister give a commitment on the golden day when class sizes are determined.

Photo of Derek KeatingDerek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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On the Bill Deputy, please.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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Yes, I will.

Photo of Derek KeatingDerek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I have been more than indulgent.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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I want to use this opportunity, as other people have done.

Photo of Derek KeatingDerek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Other people were stopped.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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I am asking whether the Minister will go back on the decision the Government has taken on class sizes. As I have stated, the first couple of weeks and months-----

Photo of Derek KeatingDerek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I am really sorry Deputy. I am bound, under Standing Orders, to interrupt again. Please respect the Chair.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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I want to know whether the Minister will give a commitment.

Photo of Derek KeatingDerek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Please respect the Chair.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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I am, but I am asking a question.

Photo of Derek KeatingDerek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Not on the Bill.

Photo of Jan O'SullivanJan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I will respond to the debate later in the day.

Photo of Derek KeatingDerek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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The Minister will respond.

Photo of Derek KeatingDerek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I have always looked forward to ringing that bell once. I ask the Deputy to respect the Chair.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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The Minister will give a commitment-----

Photo of Jan O'SullivanJan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I will respond to the debate at the end of Second Stage, as is normal.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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Will she also touch on the subject I have raised today, which is very important? Last Monday night a public meeting was held, which the Minister of State, Deputy Deenihan, attended. He gave a commitment and I believe------

Photo of Derek KeatingDerek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy, please.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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-----that he gave the Minister correspondence-----

Photo of Derek KeatingDerek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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You are out of order.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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-----from that meeting.

Photo of Derek KeatingDerek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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You are showing disrespect.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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I am keeping this going for the Acting Chairman and if he wants me to sit down and collapse the debate I will do so. He has two choices.

Photo of Derek KeatingDerek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I ask you to be respectful.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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The Acting Chairman has two choices.

Photo of Derek KeatingDerek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I have asked you to be respectful.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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I will sit down and collapse the debate.

Photo of Derek KeatingDerek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Thank you very much.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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That is on the head of the Acting Chairman. It is a bad choice.

Debate adjourned.