Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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6. To ask the Minister for Social Protection the cost to her Department of administering the water conservation grant; the number of staff who have been taken on or it is intended are to be taken on; the total supplementary funding sought in relation to administering the scheme; the anticipated transaction costs of handling the various methods by which the grant shall be awarded; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [4980/15]

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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This relates to the conservation grant the Department of Social Protection will have responsibility for paying. What impact will it have on the Department's resources and will it affect other services relating to its core function?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Department of Social Protection will administer, on behalf of the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, a €100 water conservation grant for households that complete a valid response to Irish Water's customer registration process. The grant will be paid to registered householders annually in respect of their primary dwellings. The first payment is to be made in September and payments will be made in each of the following years up to and including 2018.

My Department is in consultation with the Departments of the Environment, Community and Local Government and Public Expenditure and Reform on the staffing and funding needed to administer the scheme. The administration and payment of the grant comprise a significant project for my Department, as it will require the development and implementation of IT systems and various customer support and communications services. The Department is carrying out a scoping exercise to explore the most effective and efficient approach to its implementation. This will include estimates of the resources required to undertake the initial work involved and the ongoing administration of the grant.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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It is clear that the announcement was made without that scoping exercise having been done. Not having an indication at this point of the staffing requirements is concerning. According to the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, last December, an estimated 1.3 million households of the 1.65 million eligible would apply for the water conservation grant. If this process is not completed properly, other services could easily be impacted on. The Tánaiste is shaking her head. I will not say there have not been improvements in some payments, as there have been, but transitioning from a domiciliary care allowance payment to a longer term payment or applying for carer's allowance can take nine months and there are high levels of refusal, although more than 50% of those refused have their applications granted on appeal. If the grant will impact on such persons, we should all be concerned. Given the fact that the announcement has been made, being unable to provide even an estimate of the number of staff required or the transaction costs involved is surprising.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Department has put a project team in place to engage in a scoping exercise in respect of the business development structures and so on that will be required to put in place the process that will ensure the efficient delivery of an application and payment system for the grant, including associated consumer communications and support services. That work is ongoing. Assessing the resource requirements for new initiatives is a routine feature of what my Department does in its primary work. The Department makes approximately 85 million payments per year across a wide range of schemes and a large part of its job involves paying people efficiently and on time.

The Deputy will acknowledge that changes have been made. We have discussed them frequently, for example, changes to IT platforms and so on that have impacted on waiting times in the application processes for domiciliary care allowance, family income supplement, etc. Processing times are far faster than they used to be and the time taken to process appeals has been reduced. While we must still improve, the Deputy will acknowledge that the improvements made have been significant.

The water conservation grant will not impact on the wide range of other services and payments provided by the Department for its customers, but we must work out a detailed business plan for its implementation. We will be paying the grant on behalf of the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. However, given the fact that we already make 85 million payments per year, I am confident that we will be able to give people a good standard of service in this regard.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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There is nothing routine about this payment which has nothing to do with social protection or water conservation. It has everything to do with creative accounting and Irish Water being able to satisfy the EUROTAT test by being able to issue bills, while rebates will be provided by another Department and, as such, will not be counted in the test. It is a disgrace that we will load additional requirements onto the Department of Social Protection which should only be concerned with social protection issues. Does the Tánaiste even have an indication of the number of staff that will be required or the cost involved? She would not have made a submission to the other two Departments had she not believed there would be costs involved. What was sought in that submission?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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When the Deputy referred to the fuel allowance and the ESB-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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What?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----in a certain sense she answered her own question. The ESB is an independent company-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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I never opened my mouth about the ESB.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----that borrows significantly on national and international markets to finance considerable capital projects around the country. The Department of Social Protection pays a fuel allowance to a large number of people on long-term social welfare incomes, but this is not factored into the ESB's accounts.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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What is the Tánaiste talking about?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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In the first part of her question the Deputy asked about the purpose of the conservation grant. Her comparison with the fuel allowance was good. It is exactly like the fuel allowance and will not be-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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I did not make a comparison. To whom was the Tánaiste listening?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please, Deputy.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The fuel allowance provides good assistance for persons on long-term social welfare incomes.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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The Tánaiste is unbelievable.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Similarly, the water conservation grant which will be paid to qualifying households at the rate of €100 per year will be paid to households to assist them in conserving water and making minor repairs, for example, to fix leaking cisterns or dripping taps, which would push up their water consumption rates. That is what it is about.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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A first-fix policy.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Originally, it was going to be done through a social welfare payment and tax arrangement-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am sorry, but we must move on.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----but it is much better to do it on the basis of a universal payment to qualifying households. I am confident that we will be able to deliver the payment which will start in September. We must rely on the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, on behalf of which we are doing this. That is why we have had discussions with it.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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The Tánaiste did not answer the question, which is incredibly frustrating. I asked just one question, to which she did not even give an answer about the estimated amounts for which her Department had applied.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We are involved in discussions on it. I gave the Deputy the honest answer.