Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

6. To ask the Minister for Health the total legal costs incurred by the Health Service Executive and the State in the case of a person (details supplied) in December 2014; and the total medical costs, including staffing, drug and technological costs incurred by the HSE and hospitals in the case [2387/15]

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to ask about the cost to the HSE or State in general arising from legal and medical fees in the tragic case of a clinically dead pregnant woman who was kept on life support for 23 days against the wishes of her family and next of kin. What has been the cost of this horrific case arising from the eighth amendment and involving the taking of unwanted intervention at a time when a health crisis was escalating in the State?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I wish once again to convey my sympathies to the family of the woman at the centre of this case.

As the House will know, this case concerned a woman who was brain dead, pregnant and on life support for a number of weeks in a hospital in the State. An application was brought to the High Court by the woman’s family to withdraw somatic life support. Clinicians decided not to do so for fear of legal repercussions arising from Article 40.3.3° of the Constitution. The case was heard in the High Court on 23 and 24 December 2014 by a panel of three judges. The family, the HSE, the interest of the unborn and the mother were all represented, and medical evidence from consultants in intensive care and obstetrics was heard. On 26 December the court issued its judgment authorising the withdrawal of ongoing somatic support.

The HSE has advised me that it is unable to provide the full legal and medical costs relating to this case at the current time. As is normal, legal fees arising from court actions take some time to be submitted and settled. In any event, it is not usual as a general rule to provide cost details at individual level in respect of specific patients as both technical and privacy issues arise in making and providing such calculations. While it will be possible at a certain point to calculate the legal costs, it may not be possible to calculate the medical costs. No additional staff were employed as a result of the case. While an ICU bed was used, it would have been used in any case, albeit by somebody else.

I expect to receive further information from the HSE on this case as part of my consideration of the High Court judgment and its implications as I wish to ascertain what lessons may need to be learned from this extremely sad and unfortunate case. As I mentioned perviously, I fully believe clinicians should be able to make challenging ethical decisions in consultation with their patients and their families, as appropriate, on the basis of best clinical practice rather than on foot of legal advice or under the fear of prosecution.

I ask that the privacy of this family be respected and that it be given the appropriate time and space to grieve its loss.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I also conveyed my sympathies to the family when I raised this issue in the Dáil. I believe it was the only time it was raised. Nobody has mentioned the names of those in question, and nobody knows their names; that is fine but it should not be used as a gag against public representatives raising legitimate questions.

Dr. Peter Boylan called what happened in the tragic case grotesque and experimental. The Minister should be asking for a report from the doctors on why they felt it necessary to keep the lady on life support when it would seem, according to any information I have looked up, that no 15-week foetus has survived under these circumstances anywhere in the world. The ICU consultant involved said we were dealing with a corpse and could not believe what was going on. It would seem that we have the money to keep women as incubators but we do not have the money for nurses or beds. Can the Minister explain to people suffering from rare, life-limiting and life-threatening conditions why they cannot get medication - relevant cases have been highlighted in recent days - although money is being spent in circumstances such as those described?

The Minister of State from the Labour Party, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, is shaking her head. Fine Gael introduced the eighth amendment in 1983. The Labour Party is sitting on its hands even though it disagrees with it. It is apologising saying it is in a coalition in an election year and that it will suspend its belief in women's rights for the duration. If I were the Minister of State, I would not be shaking her head.

Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I disagree with the Deputy's behaviour. She should show a little respect.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have embarrassed ourselves again in front of the world with this case. How many more of these cases are we to have?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Nobody is trying to gag Deputy Coppinger. With the greatest of respect, I do not believe she is the kind of person who would or could be gagged. She need have no fear about that.

An issue of privacy and decency arises and the family has asked for privacy and for its confidentiality to be respected. We should endeavour to do that to the greatest extent possible. All of this was heard in open court and the doctors gave their reasons and answered the questions. They gave reasons as to why they were not willing to end somatic life support without legal advice and cover. The answers to the Deputy's questions exist already. All these matters were aired in open court. The legal costs are not yet known. It takes time before legal costs are agreed, as the Deputy knows. The medical costs probably cannot be calculated and it may well be the case that there were no additional costs. As I pointed out, the ICU bed would have been used anyway, and the staff involved were employed in any case. There were no additional staff employed.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is legitimate to ask how much was spent by the State in defending what is now an absolutely disgraceful and medieval law, which has proven that women are considered to be incubators. High Court cases cost a lot of money; I know that. Having legal representation supplied to the both the unborn and deceased woman was bizarre. The Minister is unable to provide information now. Will there be a time when he can?

People watched in horror as the case arose over Christmas. There was considerable comment in social media. It was asked why this was happening when there was a trolley crisis and bed crisis escalating in hospitals. The case brought home to people that this is an invasion of privacy, based on the eighth amendment, in respect of families' decisions. I acknowledge that the Minister admitted it is the eighth amendment and Article 40.3.3° that compelled doctors to take their course of action.

On the matter of gagging, people on this side of the House have spent their entire lives fighting for social progress but people on the other side of the House have not. Questions and issues such as those in question need to be raised. The Minister should accept that.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am no expert on legal costs but understand bills are usually submitted and are all adjudicated upon by the Taxing Master or a similar entity. I cannot tell the Deputy when the costs will be known.

The HSE did not defend this case. On behalf of the hospital, it actually supported the proposal that life support be ended. The Deputy may take a look at the study herself. All the issues in question were aired in open court.