Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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112. To ask the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs the reason the terms of reference for the commission of investigation into mothers and baby homes and certain related matters do not cover former Magdalen institutions and adoptions which occurred at State hospitals during the relevant periods; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2201/15]

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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This question is on the same topic and seeks to find out why classes or categories of people were excluded. That said, there are a great number of positive aspects both to the commission that has been set up and its terms of reference. However, I my question focuses specifically on the Magdalen institutions and the adoptions that occurred in State hospitals because it is to be hoped that during this process, there will be the prospect of people being reconnected. This is an obvious aspect of the matter about which one would hope for a good outcome for some people.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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As the Deputy has just come into the Chamber, I will reiterate what I have said already, even though Deputies Troy and Ó Caoláin may now have heard it twice. To put it in context, as the Deputy is aware, I announced the proposed terms of reference for the commission of investigation into mother and baby homes and certain related matters last week. In developing the terms of reference, due regard has been given to the emphasis on mother and baby homes in the motion approved by Dáil Éireann on 11 June 2014. I believe the terms of reference reflect the range of matters the Government was asked to consider by this House, as well by those most centrally affected by the issues, and are a fair and balanced response to the many requests for related issues to be included. In particular, the investigation will examine thoroughly the experiences of the many mothers and children who were resident in a mother and baby home over the period from 1922 to 1998.

Since the decision to establish this investigation was announced, there have been calls for the inclusion of a wide range of institutions. The approach taken to ensuring the requisite level of specificity has been to identify mother and baby homes for the purposes of this investigation. The criteria used include having the main function of providing sheltered and supervised ante and postnatal facilities to single mothers and their children, including both board and lodgings, and an ethos which those running the institutions considered to promote a regime of work, training or education as part of an overall approach to either rehabilitating single mothers or giving them training for living independently. On the basis of the available information, it would not be appropriate to consider the institutions raised by the Deputy as mother and baby homes in this same context. They did not provide this specific range of services.

However, where such institutions had a relationship or relationships with a mother and baby home, the role played by these institutions can be examined within the commission's work. In particular, the commission is tasked with examining the extent to which other institutions were part of the entry or exit pathways for single mothers and children into or leaving these homes. Linked to this examination, the commission will consider the practices and procedures relating to the placement of children outside of mother and baby homes.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House

This will examine where there was co-operation with another person or persons in arranging this placement, including where an intermediary organisation arranged a subsequent placement. It will also examine the procedures that were in place to obtain consent from mothers in respect of adoption and whether these procedures were adequate for the purpose of ensuring such consent was full, free and informed.

As I have outlined to the House in response to earlier questions from Deputy Ó Caoláin, the proposed arrangements also ensure the commission has sufficient opportunity to bring any additional matter which it considers may warrant investigation to my attention. I am confident that the appointment of Judge Yvonne Murphy as chair, together with historian Professor Mary Daly and international legal expert on child protection and adoption, Dr. William Duncan, to this commission will allow for a comprehensive assessment of the issues and for well-grounded reports and recommendations in due course.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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Is this likely to happen in parallel or is there a sequence in which this additional work will be done? Is it likely to fall into the second part of the inquiry, where there will be an interim report? If the scope is to be extended to other institutions, how is it likely that such work will take place? The second aspect on which I wish to ask a question is that I do not believe Members would be in the Chamber talking about the inclusion of the Magdalen laundries had there been a satisfactory outcome or had it been seen to have been a satisfactory outcome to the redress scheme.

The compellability aspect of this inquiry is welcome. It is incredibly important to the people who were in Magdalen laundries given information provision, depending on who was running the laundries, has been patchy. I accept some orders of nuns have been more forthcoming than others. This deficiency of information provision forms part of what could be redressed in the context of this inquiry and its powers of compellability in relation to the giving of evidence.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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In response to the Deputy's first question, much of the work will be done in parallel during the first phase. An interim report will be provided after 18 months. However, the Minister of the day can seek an interim report prior to that and it is also open to the commission to provide an earlier interim report. It is important to point out that the commission has the discretion to seek a specific change in its terms of reference. For example, it may decide that it does not need to examine further one or more of the institutions but be of the view that other institutions should form part of its examination. It is open to the commission to request of me that I bring a recommendation to Government to allow that to happen. There is a great deal of flexibility provided for.

Linked to the examination around the entry and exit pathways the commission will consider the practices and procedures relating to the placement of children outside of the mother and baby homes. This will examine where there was co-operation with another person or persons in arranging this placement, including where an intermediary organisation arranged a subsequent placement. It will also examine the procedures that were in place to obtain consent from mothers in respect of adoption and whether these procedures were adequate for the purpose of ensuring such consent was full, free and informed. It will also look at the role of the mother in decision-making and how she might have arrived in a place like the Magdalen laundry or elsewhere.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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The Minister said that it is open to the commission to come back to him for a variation or change in the terms of reference. Is such a request likely to go beyond Government and come before the Dáil? What is the process in relation to such amendment or change? I agree with the Minister that it is likely that could happen. In other words, the commission could exhaust a particular approach and there may well be a more meaningful avenue that could be explored. It is only when one gets into such matters that one can appreciate what is possible.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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On that specific issue, it is important to point out that the commission would have to come back to me as Minister and I would then have to take up the matter with Cabinet. Beyond that, we are into the realms of conjecture. I believe we can afford the commission this flexibility. We do not know whether it will do that or deem that necessary. It is important to bear in mind the Dáil motion. This is about mother and baby homes and not orphanages, the Magdalen laundries or other institutions. None the less, we have done our best to be as expansive as possible to allow the commission look into these areas as part of the exit pathways and what happened to these mothers and babies.