Dáil debates

Tuesday, 16 December 2014

Ceisteanna - Questions (Resumed)

Departmental Records

4:00 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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1. To ask the Taoiseach if his Department has in place and is implementing an adequate standard of record-keeping. [36508/14]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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2. To ask the Taoiseach the protocol on taking minutes of meetings where officials attend in his Department; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [37635/14]

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 and 2 together.

All records held in my Department are kept in compliance with the provisions of the Data Protection Acts, the Freedom of Information Act and the National Archives Act. Minutes are taken of meetings held in my Department, where judged appropriate. My Department has a designated member of staff who is responsible for managing the Department’s records and a designated certifying officer who is responsible for compliance with the National Archives Act 1986. National Archives staff assist with work relating to the annual transfer of departmental records to the National Archives. These staff maintain a central registry record-keeping system comprising a registry file tracking system and a central repository for the storage of departmental records. The location of files in the Department is monitored from the time of their creation until they are transferred to the National Archives for permanent preservation. As part of an ongoing programme of in-house training, workshops on the creation and maintenance of records have been provided for staff by relevant officials from the Department and the National Archives Office. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform has recently appointed a chief information officer, CIO, to give guidance and leadership in the development of an ICT and record management strategy across the Civil Service. My Department will actively engage with the CIO in this work.

4:10 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. All Members can agree that there is a disturbing trend in Dáil Éireann for some Deputies and parties to play fast and loose with the reputations of others. Instead of allowing due process, it appears that it is now fair game to throw out allegations and say "to hell with giving any person the right to be protected against false allegations." What has emerged is that it is the rule of politics first, while basic decency has been forgotten. This is relevant to the two questions I tabled because the Taoiseach will remember that both he and the Chief Whip made allegations in this House that files in the Department of the Taoiseach had disappeared. The question now is whether the Taoiseach has the basic decency to withdraw the slur against the officials of his Department and his predecessor. At the very least, if he is not capable of giving an apology, he could state he was withdrawing any suggestion that the files, in his own words, had disappeared "behind radiators" or anywhere else. Will he give a straight and honest answer to that question and withdraw the assertions made? Now that the banking inquiry committee is starting its public work, it must work very hard to show it is not a body to be driven by the Government's desire to be sure of the outcome. It would be an important start to its work if the Taoiseach was willing to state in this Chamber that he was not alleging that files had disappeared and that he did not want anyone to prejudge anything or anybody. It has been proved repeatedly that a large number of files are available in both the Department of the Taoiseach and the Department of Finance. I wrote to the Secretary General of the Department of the Taoiseach who is satisfied that all records were kept in accordance with the law. I believe the Taoiseach's own reply today confirms the same point about the central registry, the process by which files are initiated and then removed to archives when they are perhaps no longer needed in current day-to-day work.

It also has been confirmed that the Taoiseach does not keep minutes in the way he stated was basic. Previously, when he was responding on this issue, he stated it was basic to keep minutes. I tabled a question to him about the commitment in the programme for Government on record-keeping and it has now been sent to the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin. However, Members on this side of the House have formally sought the minutes of the conversations that led to the effective dismissal of the Garda Commissioner, only to be told that there are no such minutes and that there does not appear to be any record of them. In essence, it is important and the Taoiseach's reply clarifies a number of issues regarding how files are created, how they are kept and how they are monitored consistently. I ask that he now withdraw the assertions he made about his predecessor and potentially officials in his Department.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy received a letter in November 2013 from the Secretary General of the Department of the Taoiseach confirming to him that there was documentation relating to the bank guarantee held in the Department and listing the issues, the things the Deputy has received. I recognise this and stated in June 2014, "There is a faxed cover sheet regarding an Iris Oifigiúilnotice, No. 87; an Iris Oifigiúilnotice regarding the NTMA delegation of functions ...; a letter from the Clerk of the Seanad; a memorandum for the Government and a submission slip regarding a memo, No. 79." I also stated, "there are notes of a telephone call by the [then] Taoiseach with the then British Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, points for telephone discussion with the Scottish First Minister, ... an e-mail from the Office of the Attorney General, including a letter to the Taoiseach, and so on." I readily admit that it is in the Official Report for June 2014 and the Deputy has confirmation from the Secretary General of the Department that there is documentation within the Department of the Taoiseach. I accept this and if I have caused any offence about it, I certainly withdraw it. However, what I would have expected - clearly, there may be much more information available in the Department of Finance on meetings that took place there; I do not know the range of meetings that took place in either Department-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It was the phrase the Taoiseach used. He stated files had disappeared behind radiators.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If I said that-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach did say it.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I might have made a comparison with what had happened or references in other cases-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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No, it was what the Taoiseach said. He used the word "disappeared".

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----where papers had slipped down behind boxes and radiators. I withdraw it. Obviously, the banking inquiry is now starting and it is very limited in the range of questions it can ask about how all of this occurred, it was dealt with and so on. It is completely independent in the manner in which it will do its business, as I have confirmed to members from my own party. Consequently, I will confirm it for the Deputy.

As for the Fennelly commission, it is under way with the eminent justice and I do not propose to make any comment on it, nor do I have any control, good, bad or indifferent, over the work of the commission, as I am sure the Deputy understands.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I was somewhat surprised by the audacity of the Fianna Fáil leader in complaining about some Deputies naming names and making allegations about others because, as the Ceann Comhairle is aware, Teachta Micheál Martin only recently completely ignored due process and named a number of Sinn Féin activists, including private citizens, and alleged that they were involved in serious crimes. There is a need for all Members to practise what they preach in these matters. Good record-keeping is important, as the Taoiseach has acknowledged. He also has stated - this is both welcome and obvious - that staff are trained in the keeping of records. I do not know whether he has stated they are also trained in a widespread way in how to deal with freedom of information requests which are an important device to elicit information. If it is not possible to make available such information, reasons should be given for this because people may understand if a reason is given, whereas many times no reason is given.

In addition, I refer to the claim the Taoiseach made in this Chamber in my presence that Department of Finance files at the time of the bank guarantee were not available. It was not just that they were not available or were missing, but the suggestion was they were hidden. Given the number of times this remark was repeated in the Chamber, to now withdraw it seems somewhat reprehensible to me. Moreover, given that the banking inquiry is starting and will seek access to records, there is a case for a high standard of record-keeping and that such assertions and allegations should not be made. As for the idea of public confidence, citizens must have confidence, regardless of whether they like, respect or agree with what the Government or the Oireachtas might do. They must have some confidence that Members are serious in how they approach their job. How can the Taoiseach make an assertion not just that files were missing but that they were deliberately hidden, destroyed or not available to the incoming Government led by him and now, on the eve of the banking inquiry getting under way, simply withdraw it?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I dealt with that issue in response to the question from Deputy Micheál Martin. I am withdrawing my remarks that these things were deliberately or otherwise not made available. In respect of record-keeping, staff are trained and upgraded in that regard. They work with staff from the National Archives in order that records are kept to the highest standards. There has been a change under the new Freedom of Information Act in respect of claims or issues under freedom of information legislation that are raised by Deputies who may have been in government a number of years ago such as Deputy Micheál Martin who was a Minister in the previous Government or the former Minister, Eamon Ryan.

With the change in the Act, if the current leader of a political party in government at the time the decision was made and any Government member who was not a member of the political party, from a practical point of view, must be consulted about Government records, memos, agendas, decisions and minutes of meetings before a decision is made to release them. In the case of Deputy Martin and Mr. Eamon Ryan, the Department is currently dealing with a number of freedom of information requests for Cabinet-related decisions that are five years old or more, including requests for records relating to the bank guarantee. The Department has written to both gentlemen advising them of the requests received and that records will be available for inspection, giving them a two week period to respond, in accordance with the Act. The correspondence may not have arrived yet with Deputy Martin.

The statutory framework relating to freedom of information keeps the decision-making process at arms length from the political head of the Department so, as Taoiseach, I have no role in processing freedom of information requests, nor do I know what they are. Under the new Act, they will be sent to Deputy Martin and Mr. Eamon Ryan and, as heads of their respective political parties now, they will have two weeks to respond to the requests. In so far as the standard and credibility of the record-keeping is concerned, I am happy the initiatives taken by the Department of the Taoiseach and others are up to the standard and will be there for future reference.

4:20 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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On the last point the Taoiseach made, which was not quite relevant to the question, perhaps the Taoiseach can forward a note to me. I have not received anything yet.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am not sure when the records will be released to Deputy Martin but I will have a note sent to him this afternoon.