Thomas Pringle (Donegal South West, Independent)
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3. To ask the Minister for Social Protection if she will allow fishermen who own their own boats, who are sole traders or may have one or two crew members to pay class P PRSI contributions in order for them to avail of the limited benefits under class P for periods when they are unable to fish due to weather and so on; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [47110/14]

Thomas Pringle (Donegal South West, Independent)
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I do not mind, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, if you want the discussion on the previous question to continue for a while.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Other Members are waiting to ask questions as well.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal South West, Independent)
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This question relates to the class P PRSI contributions that were established for share fishermen to avail of limited benefits under the social insurance scheme. There has been a poor take-up by share fishermen with regard to the scheme but a number of small inshore fishermen who are sole traders or who own their own boats and who might have one or two crew cannot avail of any social insurance for periods of bad weather when they cannot fish. They are dependent on the catch of the vessel for their income and I ask if the scheme could be extended to include them too, which would give them a worthwhile income.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I thank the Deputy for the question. The treatment of workers involved in the fishing industry depends on whether they are regarded as an employee or self-employed or, if self-employed, are a share-fisherman-woman for social insurance purposes. A fisherman or woman who is paid a fixed wage or salary may be regarded as an employee of the boat owner or skipper and, similar to employees in other sectors, is liable to pay PRSI contributions at class A. Class A employees pay PRSI at 4 % and have access to the full range of social insurance benefits, including jobseeker’s benefit. In addition, their employer makes a PRSI contribution of 10.75%.

Fishermen or women who are not employees may be regarded as self-employed for social insurance purposes. Once annual income exceeds €5,000, they are liable to PRSI at the class S rate of 4%, subject to the minimum payment of €500. This gives entitlement to a more limited range of long-term but valuable benefits such as the State pension, contributory, and widow’s, widower’s or surviving civil partner’s pension, contributory, as well as maternity benefit, adoptive benefit and guardians payment, contributory.

A person who works in the fishing industry on a self-employed basis and is paid solely by the "share" of the value of the catch is regarded as a share-fishermen or women. In addition to their liability to pay class S PRSI contributions, they also have the option to pay additional PRSI contributions at class P. This contribution is over and above the PRSI paid under class S and is charged at 4% of all income over €2,500, subject to a minimum annual payment of €200. Class P entitles the contributor to limited jobseeker's benefit up to 13 weeks in each calendar year, limited illness benefit up to 52 weeks and treatment benefit.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House

In 2012, 16 individuals opted to pay class P contributions. Class P was introduced to reflect the very unique characteristics of share-fishing whereby, following a 1986 High Court ruling, the skipper and crew are regarded to be in partnership. A fisherman who owns his own boat is not precluded from opting to pay class P provided he or she is remunerated by way of "sharing" the catch with his or her crew. Extension of additional entitlements, such as class P entitlements, to other categories of fishermen-women not engaged in share-fishing activities could only be considered in the context of extension of entitlements to other categories of self-employed, whose activities do not have the same unique characteristics which prevail in share-fishing.

Self-employed workers, including share fishermen-women, who cannot work because of poor weather conditions can apply for the means-tested jobseeker’s allowance during periods of unemployment. In general, their means will take account of the level of earnings in the last twelve months in determining their expected income for the following year. Typically, over 80% of jobseeker’s allowance claims from self-employed persons have been awarded over recent years.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal South West, Independent)
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I thank the Minister for the outline with regard to class P but that is not the question I asked. We have attempted through the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine to tease out this question with the Minister's Department on a number of occasions in the past six or seven months and that is the stock answer we are given. The crux of the issue is that there are fishermen who are owners of their own boats, who are self-employed and treated as self-employed for tax purposes, who depend on the catch for their income. They are inshore fishermen. I am not talking about big trawler owners; they are small inshore fishermen who are excluded from class P because they are not share fishermen employees. They are the employer but they are in the same situation in that they are dependent on the catch. However, for long periods during the storms last year they were prevented from making a livelihood. The Minister will say they are entitled to jobseeker's allowance on a means-test basis but what they want is the right to make a social insurance contribution, which would give them a sense of security in periods of bad weather.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Deputy.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal South West, Independent)
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The question is on the definition of share fishermen under the scheme and whether it could be amended to allow them avail of social insurance during periods of bad weather.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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With the weather in Donegal recently everybody appreciates that the vagaries of the weather can be very tough on people in the fishing industry. I hope the current weather does not cause too many problems.

I understand the Deputy is talking about the boat owner-----

Thomas Pringle (Donegal South West, Independent)
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Yes.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----and that he would like the boat owner to have access to the class P insurance. We can certainly examine that. In 2012, for instance, 16 individuals opted to pay class P contributions. I do not know if the people the Deputy is describing are full-time fishermen or fishermen and farmers because they may have other social welfare connections. We would need to examine it on a case by case basis to determine how many people are likely to be involved. The Deputy is talking about the north west but there might be people for whom this is an issue in other parts of the country. In terms of the income situation of a fisherman or a farmer deteriorating badly as a result of storms, we changed the system to allow them come into it in the context of their current circumstances. It was the case that it was on a preceding year basis. It is means tested, as the Deputy said, but approximately 90% of applications for jobseeker's allowance, providing they meet the means test, are granted whereas three or four years ago very few were granted.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal South West, Independent)
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Most share fishermen now are treated as employees because they are on a contract that takes them out of that self-employment situation but even when they were not so treated there was a very small take-up of it because it was a voluntary contribution and people did not want to voluntarily hand over some of their earnings. We are not talking about huge numbers of people but perhaps 1,000 or 1,500 across the country. However, it would make a huge difference to them in terms of having a social insurance claim-----

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Yes.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal South West, Independent)
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-----rather than a social assistance claim. It would benefit them greatly. Quite a few of them would be full-time fishermen dependent on fishing for their income. The Department's scope section might look into that to see if there is some way it can be accommodated because it would be of value.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I am certainly prepared to look at it because I know that people in the fishing industry work very hard, particularly the inshore fishermen. It is a tough occupation. There is not a vast amount of money in it except from time to time. However, if they decided to go with the class P contribution, and the Deputy is indicating they would accept paying the extra 4% on the terms and conditions, it gives rise to quite good benefits including jobseeker's benefit for 13 weeks and illness benefit for up to 52 weeks but the reports of the advisory group advocated that for an extra 1.5%, all self-employed people would get invalidity benefit. Unfortunately, many of the associations and organisations representing self-employed people in different categories were opposed to that. They suggested doing it on a voluntary basis but it is impossible to do a comprehensive social insurance scheme on a voluntary basis because like all insurance, it is based on many people taking out cover and those who need it benefiting from it.

10 o’clock

I will ask my officials to look at it.