Clare Daly (Dublin North, United Left)
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5. To ask the Minister for Defence his views regarding reports of over 20% of enlisted personnel experiencing poverty; if he will take urgent action to address this problem; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [43329/14]

Clare Daly (Dublin North, United Left)
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This is essentially the same issue as that raised by Deputy Ó Fearghaíl. I note the Minister acknowledged there is a problem with pay in the Defence Forces but his defence is that he did not know about it or is now looking at it. The facts speak for themselves. The level of pay in the Defence Forces does not meet a threshold of decency in a large number of cases and has to be supplemented by the social welfare system. He is correct that the situation has been aggravated by the austerity cutbacks on public sector workers over the past several years but the roots of it lie in the fact that traditionally members of the Defence Forces have been paid less than their peers in other areas. That has to be addressed.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I take some of those points. I do not want to repeat my reply to the previous question. Two Departments are involved in this matter, my Department and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. We are trying to maintain a Defence Forces strength of 9,500. We are in the process of taking on a significant number of new recruits to ensure we maintain that strength, which obviously will have budgetary consequences. I will insist that the reviews to which we have committed take place. We will consider the outcome of those reviews when they are ready and, hopefully, we will be able to act on them. Many families and people in the public sector and, in particular, in the private sector have needed support from the State in terms of income levels in recent years, for all sorts of individual and, in some cases, very complex reasons. I do not think we should draw broad sweeping conclusions from this particular matter. The issues arising in the Defence Forces around pay and remuneration will be the subject of a review in the not too distant future, and let us await the outcome of that review.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, United Left)
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It is not a case of broad sweeping conclusions. The criteria operated by the Department of Social Protection provide that if an individual's income falls below a certain level, social welfare steps in to bring it to a level of decency. One need only look at the pay rates in the Defence Forces to know why this support is particularly necessary in this context. Irish Defence Forces personnel have always been poorly paid. I was brought up in a Defence Forces family and I know these long-standing problems. However, the problem has been aggravated by the cuts and the 20% loss of earnings since 2009. That has consequences. Unless the review is prepared to examine the basic pay rates for Defence Forces personnel, the problem will persist. The Minister does not appear willing to budge in that regard.

The issue of people sleeping in cars is linked to barracks closures but it is also linked to the undermining of residential accommodation to which, according to the Minister, people are referred. I know of people in the Curragh who are not affected by barracks closures but who cannot find residential accommodation on the Curragh because of the way it has deteriorated and the number of families who have been forced out of residential accommodation due to Defence Forces policy. The Minister has a duty of care to Defence Forces personnel and these pressing issues have to be addressed.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I take seriously my duty of care to Defence Forces personnel. In regard to basic pay, the only pay agreement for which this Government is responsible is the Haddington Road agreement. There was no cut to basic pay for enlisted Defence Forces personnel under that agreement. I will not go into previous pay deals or decisions previous Governments were forced to take. That is our record. We have also recognised the need to review some of the elements of pay and remuneration in the Defence Forces, and we are proceeding with that. I take the Deputy's point and, on the basis of the review, I will have a credible set of recommendations on which to act. When we get the recommendations we can bring them before the House for discussion and, hopefully, the Government will be in a position to act on them.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, United Left)
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Pay does not solely comprise basic pay. While basic pay may not have been cut under Haddington Road, it is none the less a fact that the payments to and average earnings of soldiers have deteriorated by 20% since 2009 because of the cuts in allowances which form an essential part of their pay packets. These issues have to be addressed. I note that the Minister is not in favour of giving them negotiating rights but he will be aware that PDFORRA is taking a case to the European Court of Human Rights and, as a consequence of the judgment in the case brought by gardaí which allowed them to access the State's industrial relations machinery, that privilege should be extended to the Defence Forces. The Minister might be better off agreeing that with them rather than being forced to act by Europe.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The only reason I referred to basic pay was because the Deputy referred to basic pay. I accept that other elements also affect people's incomes. I am not pretending this is not an issue. I also acknowledge that other elements of Haddington Road have impacted on effective take-home pay of people in the Defence Forces. Of course we will take note of any legal judgments made in Ireland or the European Union and if there are consequences to those judgments, we will act on them.